Was Assad correct all along

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Discussion

xuy

Original Poster:

1,116 posts

153 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
Assad has always said that terrorists had invaded Syria and caused the civil war.

With the sudden growth of ISIS perhaps he was right after all?

Or has ISIS been born because of a civil war.

I guess we will never really know the answer.

Any thoughts?

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
ISIS evolved from several groups, it was not the force behind the initial uprising against Assad.

Here's a report from 2012 detailing the worry about extremists hijacking the Syrian uprising

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/syrian-rebel-uprising-...

Edited by skyrover on Wednesday 27th August 12:51

Four Litre

2,013 posts

191 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
Very hard to fully understand this, but it should be a lesson for all politicians & leaders not to go rushing in without understanding the facts first.

Afterall, a few months back there was a rush to see who could arm them first, I seem to remember big willy Hague foaming at the mouth to team up!

Think about how much of a mess Iraq seems to be without Saddam or Libya without Gadaffi. Yes they were far from our 'democratic' ways as possible but with hindsight it appears they were holding a massive ststorm together.

IMHO - was assad right? Yes.


simo1863

1,866 posts

127 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
He's a murderous cretin but will be replaced by another murderous cretin if defeated and probably one of worse proportions.

John145

2,447 posts

155 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
Assad probably understands his local neighbourhood better than our politicians do.

mrpurple

2,624 posts

187 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
All too complicated for me to understand but I do wonder where things would stand now if we had bombed the crap out of the place as "some" wanted to.

Grumfutock

5,274 posts

164 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
It might fly in the face of our western idea of democracy and our dislike of dictators, and even smack of being a tad racist, but a simple fact is that some countries haven't evolved past the need to have a "strong man" in charge. When they suddenly lose that force of character it doesn't tend to end well.

Qwert1e

545 posts

117 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
Grumfutock said:
It might fly in the face of our western idea of democracy and our dislike of dictators, and even smack of being a tad racist, but a simple fact is that some countries haven't evolved past the need to have a "strong man" in charge. When they suddenly lose that force of character it doesn't tend to end well.
I see what you mean. A bit like Tony Blair. And George Bush.

DrDoofenshmirtz

15,186 posts

199 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
Qwert1e said:
Grumfutock said:
It might fly in the face of our western idea of democracy and our dislike of dictators, and even smack of being a tad racist, but a simple fact is that some countries haven't evolved past the need to have a "strong man" in charge. When they suddenly lose that force of character it doesn't tend to end well.
I see what you mean. A bit like Tony Blair. And George Bush.
No, nothing like.
But some places do need a good dictator to hold things together - just look at the mess we're in now without one.


Mr Gearchange

5,892 posts

205 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
We should have learned to leave the fk alone by now.

The west meddling in Afghanistan against the Russians armed and trained large elements of Al Qaeda.
The west meddling in Iraq left a ststorm behind which ironically is now creating the terrorist state which was the pretence for going in there in the first place.
Our invasion of Afghanistan following 9/11 was idiotic - the taliban never did anything to anyone but their own people- but bombing the crap out of them left us with a lot of dead soldiers and a lot of radicallised Muslims here and abroad.
Our arming and support of the rebels in Syria has equipped IS with some heavy duty military hardware.
We support and prop up governments who fund and equip the various lunatic factions of Islam.

Despot dictators were quite ironically the least of our worries - I was never worried about the Russians in Afghanistan, Sadam in Iraq, Gadaffi in Lybia or Assad in Syria. I'm much more concerned about what the world looks like now they have gone.

Leave it alone. No good comes of playing world police.

Edited by Mr Gearchange on Wednesday 27th August 17:34

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
DrDoofenshmirtz said:
Qwert1e said:
Grumfutock said:
It might fly in the face of our western idea of democracy and our dislike of dictators, and even smack of being a tad racist, but a simple fact is that some countries haven't evolved past the need to have a "strong man" in charge. When they suddenly lose that force of character it doesn't tend to end well.
I see what you mean. A bit like Tony Blair. And George Bush.
No, nothing like.
But some places do need a good dictator to hold things together - just look at the mess we're in now without one.
Really, Dr Doof, has being whacked by Perry the Platypus addled your brains? No place needs a dictator. No, not even the whole of the Tri State Area. Bad government breeds problems and conflict.

Grumfutock

5,274 posts

164 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
Qwert1e said:
I see what you mean. A bit like Tony Blair. And George Bush.
Yep because the US and Britain absolutely fell apart when those two left office!

Iraq
Libya
Egypt
Yugoslavia

To name but a few!



avinalarf

6,438 posts

141 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
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Breadvan72 said:
Really, Dr Doof, has being whacked by Perry the Platypus addled your brains? No place needs a dictator. No, not even the whole of the Tri State Area. Bad government breeds problems and conflict.
Stating the obvious does not provide a solution to the problem.
Throughout the Middle East there are few democracies that we would recognise as such.
Therefore however distasteful any form of dictatorship, what do you propose as a solution ?
Regime change has been a disaster,although I accept that regime change has often been for the benefit of Western interests rather than,or as much as,a desire to improve conditions.

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
It was a bit strange during the whole Arab spring thing how the West seemed to add vocal support for people who were effectively committing revolution to over throw hegemonic state structures inspired by our own. The amount of popular support for ideas that reject the old "state" structures is growing and growing quite fast amongst the youth online and is showing popular support in a lot of ways in America and in Europe (the far right UKIP/Tea party is skirting on the edges of the idea that "States" are defunct and returning to pre 20th century ideas of nationhood and individuals).

I think social media and the way the Arab spring appealed to peoples natural anarchic tenancies for freedom from oppression really caught a lot of western governments in the hop, they didn't quite know what or who to support, on balance they probably did the right thing, not sure we can say the same thing about the Russians.

fido

16,752 posts

254 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
No place needs a dictator. No, not even the whole of the Tri State Area. Bad government breeds problems and conflict.
Okay, okay - but you need to replace dictator + power structure with a government that can manage the co-existing peoples in that place, so it doesn't become a power vacuum for jihadist nutters who go round slaughtering people who they don't like. Which is what has happened more than once, leaving behind a large number of dead civilians who didn't have a lot of say in the matter before and after.


Edited by fido on Wednesday 27th August 18:28

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
fido said:
Breadvan72 said:
No place needs a dictator. No, not even the whole of the Tri State Area. Bad government breeds problems and conflict.
Okay, okay - but you need to replace dictator + power structure with a government that can manage the co-existing peoples in that place, so it doesn't become a power vacuum for jihadist nutters who go round slaughtering people who they don't like. Which is what has happened more than once.
All states and nation states, all power structures are built on the threat of extreme violence or incarceration for those that don't obey the rules of that state - that's what states are. The only real difference is what the rules are and how they are made. Slaughtering people you don't like is the bedrock of building a nation state - they're all built like that from pre history to the most modern of states.

tom2019

770 posts

194 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
I wonder what percentage of people now think life was better under assad/gaddafi/saddam. People looked to Tunisia for an example when they were rioting. Why did it work out so much better in Tunisia? Does Tunisia have huge oil reserves?

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
fido said:
Breadvan72 said:
No place needs a dictator. No, not even the whole of the Tri State Area. Bad government breeds problems and conflict.
Okay, okay - but you need to replace dictator + power structure with a government that can manage the co-existing peoples in that place, so it doesn't become a power vacuum for jihadist nutters who go round slaughtering people who they don't like. Which is what has happened more than once.
yes

The policy to disband the Iraqi Army and the 'de-Bathification' of Iraqi society/ the civil service (by the Americans and supported by us) was, in hindsight, a massive mistake. It helped to create an environment where the Sunni jihadist groups could actually thrive over there because they had a certain level of support from the locals who felt incredibility marginalised by the new Shiite dominated Iraqi establishment. And from such groups evolved even more extreme groups like ISIS.

It was a self fulfilling prophesy really - we wanted rid of Saddam because we claimed he was jumping into bed with organisations like AQ. He wasn't but now the region is full of such groups. I don't think we would have seen ISIS had we handled the aftermath of the Iraq war better.


Edited by BlackLabel on Wednesday 27th August 18:43

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
tom2019 said:
I wonder what percentage of people now think life was better under assad/gaddafi/saddam. People looked to Tunisia for an example when they were rioting. Why did it work out so much better in Tunisia? Does Tunisia have huge oil reserves?
Check the news, Tunisia is in deep st themselves, it's a smaller country with a strong youth culture, big tourist industry to protect and fairly west looking - but they're right in it...

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/u...

Grumfutock

5,274 posts

164 months

Wednesday 27th August 2014
quotequote all
tom2019 said:
I wonder what percentage of people now think life was better under assad/gaddafi/saddam. People looked to Tunisia for an example when they were rioting. Why did it work out so much better in Tunisia? Does Tunisia have huge oil reserves?
It isn't that great in Tunisia right now according to a Tunisian I work with. And yes, Tunisia does have oil.