Police and Crime Commisioners Wow Just Wow
Discussion
gpo746 said:
Not being rude but what was "15 years ago" I assume a large scale issue for the Police as you mention a letter but what event was it
I know the riots were 4 years agoand thought this may be Hillsporough or something but dates wrong so can't work out what went down this time in 1999 ?
Sorry if I sound thick - genuine question not points scoring just baffled.
It's fifteen years since I left the Police. The letter I linked is just showing the attitude of a PCC to injured officers - that is they are a cost problem.I know the riots were 4 years agoand thought this may be Hillsporough or something but dates wrong so can't work out what went down this time in 1999 ?
Sorry if I sound thick - genuine question not points scoring just baffled.
Regarding Elroy Blue's comments about waiting around with casualities for the ambulance to arrive longer these days, it seems there is a paramedic shortage due to a retention problem:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04kf9mn
I half listened to it. I heard a few public sector weasel word platitudes that could indicate a 'my way or the highway' attitude to staff and the need to hit performance metrics rather than doing what the role is supposed to be.
Perhaps the Police Fed. could do a campaign riffing off of the 'Police could you?' recruitment adverts? 'Police & Crime Commissioner could you?' with examples from PCCs around the country, Barnes in Kent springs to mind.
Patrick Tipping the PCC for Notts. has done pensions for police dogs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04kf9mn
I half listened to it. I heard a few public sector weasel word platitudes that could indicate a 'my way or the highway' attitude to staff and the need to hit performance metrics rather than doing what the role is supposed to be.
Perhaps the Police Fed. could do a campaign riffing off of the 'Police could you?' recruitment adverts? 'Police & Crime Commissioner could you?' with examples from PCCs around the country, Barnes in Kent springs to mind.
Patrick Tipping the PCC for Notts. has done pensions for police dogs.
Elroy Blue said:
don4l said:
I normally find your posts to be a bit "chippy".
You do seem to be a bit left wing from from where I sit.
However, even a right winger like me doesn't believe that the police should have to spend an hour waiting for an ambulance to arrive.
That must be horrible.
Well you'd be wrong. I've never voted anything but Conservative, but have had to watch the emergency services by decimated for ideological reasons by a smarmy, lying, old boys club. They have crippled the Police and proudly proclaim that they intend to make the same amount of cuts again, making the Police service unviable. You do seem to be a bit left wing from from where I sit.
However, even a right winger like me doesn't believe that the police should have to spend an hour waiting for an ambulance to arrive.
That must be horrible.
They do of course stand up and lie about 'protecting the front line', but it's total horses
t. They have ensured that 140'000 mainly Tory supporters will never vote for them againWhile I do not agree with cutting essential services (police, ambulance, hospitals, for example) it's an unfortunate fact of life, at the moment. The best thing people can do is ensure Labour never get back in to screw the country again, as they have done every single time they have been elected in the last 100 or so years.
I slightly digress from the main topic however .... that's my 2 pennies' worth.
Likes Fast Cars said:
The cuts you refer to all part of Labour's legacy.
Economic disaster happened on Labour's watch. The conservatives priorities on dealing with spending cuts are a reflection of what they think is important.Policing budget down. Foreign aid protected. 'Green' budget increased.
More money to be spent on foreign aid than policing in the UK. A conservative commitment.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2217634/Fo...
Edited by brenflys777 on Sunday 12th October 08:05
Likes Fast Cars said:
The cuts you refer to all part of Labour's legacy. The place is in a frigging mess economically due to Labour's politically correct BS, hiring their mates for cushy non-jobs, and throwing money around like drunken sailors mentality, which by the way has also given us most of the nanny state b*ll0^ks everyone has to live with.
While I do not agree with cutting essential services (police, ambulance, hospitals, for example) it's an unfortunate fact of life, at the moment. The best thing people can do is ensure Labour never get back in to screw the country again, as they have done every single time they have been elected in the last 100 or so years.
I slightly digress from the main topic however .... that's my 2 pennies' worth.
The cuts to the Police have nothing to do with 'austerity' and everything to do with the Sheehy report. The Sheey report of the early 90s was another hatchet job on the Police. It was shot down by Michael Howard and Thatcher as being far too extreme. While I do not agree with cutting essential services (police, ambulance, hospitals, for example) it's an unfortunate fact of life, at the moment. The best thing people can do is ensure Labour never get back in to screw the country again, as they have done every single time they have been elected in the last 100 or so years.
I slightly digress from the main topic however .... that's my 2 pennies' worth.
I'd tell you who was the co-author, but this comment sums it up better:
‘Peter and I met with a number of MPs in July. We spoke with Michael Fallon MP, Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party – clearly a man of influence; a man “in the know”. We laid out our concerns about Winsor and Hutton.
His response (paraphrasing) – “You’re getting it all at once because you got away with Sheehy.”
What an insult to every police officer in the UK. Who do you think was a special advisor to the then Home Secretary at the time of the Sheehy Report in 1993? One David Cameron!
Elroy Blue said:
mph1977 said:
The ambulance service is not in meltdown
Without wishing to be direct, bks.I've got over 20 years in the job. Only in the last few years have I had to wait with seriously injured people over an hour for an ambulance. Only in the last few years have I been repeatedly told there are no ambulances available. And only in the last few years do we often take people to hospital in Police cars. A colleague of mine called 999 a few weeks ago when his young daughter collapsed. An ambulance arrived...from bloody St Johns. They crew were not adequately trained and her life was saved by a doctor who lives next door.
This is being repeated across the country. In London it's even worse. This isn't caused by staff, it's caused be 'reform'. Otherwise known as cuts.
gpo746 said:
s3fella said:
Don't knock the St Johns as you now sound like a jumped up pratt
Bit rude but personally I just think he sounds like a hard done copper.Now back to Police Commisioners and their worth to society...................
http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/about-us/latest-news/new...
s3fella said:
Don't knock the St Johns as you now sound like a jumped up pratt
I suggest you get your head out of your backside and consider the context of the post.St Johns are fine for the village fete. It was a life and death situation for my colleague's daughter. The two people who turned up, could not diagnose what the problem was and did not know what to do. Her life was saved because their neighbour was a GP, who happened to be in and came around and kept her alive.
I could tell you all about the times I've kept people alive at RTCs, but as a jumped up pratt on a taxpayers salary (god forbid I get paid), it's not really relevant. It certainly doesn't make me a substitute for fully trained ambulance staff.
I'm sorry if facts get in the way.
Edited by Elroy Blue on Sunday 12th October 13:35
Elroy Blue said:
s3fella said:
Don't knock the St Johns as you now sound like a jumped up pratt
I suggest you get your head out of your backside and consider the context of the post.St Johns are fine for the village fete. It was a life and death situation for my colleague's daughter. The two people who turned up, could not diagnose what the problem was and did not know what to do. Her life was saved because their neighbour was a GP, who happened to be in and came around and kept her alive.
I could tell you all about the times I've kept people alive at RTCs, but as a jumped up pratt on a taxpayers salary (god forbid I get paid), it's not really relevant. It certainly doesn't make me a substitute for fully trained ambulance staff.
I'm sorry if facts get in the way.
Edited by Elroy Blue on Sunday 12th October 13:35
Do a bit of research you uneducated fool on how many lives St Johns ambulance save every year. All volunteers and all providing help and comfort to joe public in their hour of need.
You show yourself up here and I am sure many have lots any respect they had for you with such belittling postings.
Elroy Blue said:
s3fella said:
Don't knock the St Johns as you now sound like a jumped up pratt
I suggest you get your head out of your backside and consider the context of the post.St Johns are fine for the village fete. It was a life and death situation for my colleague's daughter. The two people who turned up, could not diagnose what the problem was and did not know what to do. Her life was saved because their neighbour was a GP, who happened to be in and came around and kept her alive.
I could tell you all about the times I've kept people alive at RTCs, but as a jumped up pratt on a taxpayers salary (god forbid I get paid), it's not really relevant. It certainly doesn't make me a substitute for fully trained ambulance staff.
I'm sorry if facts get in the way.
Edited by Elroy Blue on Sunday 12th October 13:35
All you have done is demonstrated your ignorance.
There are 5 or 6 clinical grades of SJA none Health Professional staff ( both paid nad volunteer)
3 of these grades do not crew ambulances ( First Aiders, Advanced First Aiders , Cycle responders - First Aiders have greater training that a level 4 police first aider / FAW holder and have a similar level of training to the Ambulance community responder)
there are 3 grades of ' lay person' Ambulance crew with SJA
-Patient Transport Attendants - these people won't be attending emergency calls and can only attend AS2 urgents as 'driver' for higher graded personnel
-Emergency Transport Attendants - these personnel have the core skills ofthe Ambulance technician but do not have access to the full range of drug therapies and do not have access to a couple of diagnostic interventions that Technicians do
- recently there has been a level 3 Emergency medical technician award introduced which closes the majority of gaps between the ETA award the national Proficiency Ceritificate (IHCD technician).
SJA recognises the IHCD technician award but does not run it's own training for this grade
However legislative grey areas have prevented the EMTs and IHCD techs from accessing one or two drug therapies that NHS services allow for their techs , however this is becasue the NHS service has taken a different interpretation of the grey area ( doesn't allways work that way - e.g. removal of PR diazepam from none Health Professional NHS Ambulance crews a few years ago )
it is also pertinent to note that not every NHS ambulance that attends a 999 call will have a Paramedic or Specialist Nurse on board , which means it's entirely possible for an NHS crew to turn up and not be able to deliver the indiciated by guidelines treatment.
Do get over yourself. Nobody has 'belittled' the work the St Johns ambulance VOLUNTEERS do.
You seem to have difficulty grasping that when someone dials 999 for a life and death situation, they want a PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED, FULLY QUALIFIED Paramedic. This believe it or not, gives a good chance of the person surviving.
Our emergency services should not be relying on anything but this.
You seem to have difficulty grasping that when someone dials 999 for a life and death situation, they want a PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED, FULLY QUALIFIED Paramedic. This believe it or not, gives a good chance of the person surviving.
Our emergency services should not be relying on anything but this.
mph1977 said:
so in that case butt out and let the fully trained Ambulance staff do their jobs.
All you have done is demonstrated your ignorance.
There are 5 or 6 clinical grades of SJA none Health Professional staff ( both paid nad volunteer)
3 of these grades do not crew ambulances ( First Aiders, Advanced First Aiders , Cycle responders - First Aiders have greater training that a level 4 police first aider / FAW holder and have a similar level of training to the Ambulance community responder)
there are 3 grades of ' lay person' Ambulance crew with SJA
-Patient Transport Attendants - these people won't be attending emergency calls and can only attend AS2 urgents as 'driver' for higher graded personnel
-Emergency Transport Attendants - these personnel have the core skills ofthe Ambulance technician but do not have access to the full range of drug therapies and do not have access to a couple of diagnostic interventions that Technicians do
- recently there has been a level 3 Emergency medical technician award introduced which closes the majority of gaps between the ETA award the national Proficiency Ceritificate (IHCD technician).
SJA recognises the IHCD technician award but does not run it's own training for this grade
However legislative grey areas have prevented the EMTs and IHCD techs from accessing one or two drug therapies that NHS services allow for their techs , however this is becasue the NHS service has taken a different interpretation of the grey area ( doesn't allways work that way - e.g. removal of PR diazepam from none Health Professional NHS Ambulance crews a few years ago )
it is also pertinent to note that not every NHS ambulance that attends a 999 call will have a Paramedic or Specialist Nurse on board , which means it's entirely possible for an NHS crew to turn up and not be able to deliver the indiciated by guidelines treatment.
The fact remains that the St John crew did not know what to do and were panicking. The childs life was saved by the GP. All you have done is demonstrated your ignorance.
There are 5 or 6 clinical grades of SJA none Health Professional staff ( both paid nad volunteer)
3 of these grades do not crew ambulances ( First Aiders, Advanced First Aiders , Cycle responders - First Aiders have greater training that a level 4 police first aider / FAW holder and have a similar level of training to the Ambulance community responder)
there are 3 grades of ' lay person' Ambulance crew with SJA
-Patient Transport Attendants - these people won't be attending emergency calls and can only attend AS2 urgents as 'driver' for higher graded personnel
-Emergency Transport Attendants - these personnel have the core skills ofthe Ambulance technician but do not have access to the full range of drug therapies and do not have access to a couple of diagnostic interventions that Technicians do
- recently there has been a level 3 Emergency medical technician award introduced which closes the majority of gaps between the ETA award the national Proficiency Ceritificate (IHCD technician).
SJA recognises the IHCD technician award but does not run it's own training for this grade
However legislative grey areas have prevented the EMTs and IHCD techs from accessing one or two drug therapies that NHS services allow for their techs , however this is becasue the NHS service has taken a different interpretation of the grey area ( doesn't allways work that way - e.g. removal of PR diazepam from none Health Professional NHS Ambulance crews a few years ago )
it is also pertinent to note that not every NHS ambulance that attends a 999 call will have a Paramedic or Specialist Nurse on board , which means it's entirely possible for an NHS crew to turn up and not be able to deliver the indiciated by guidelines treatment.
Your NHS manager speak ignores the fact that there are now constant waits for ambulances that never happened previously.
It ignores that fact that we are now taking injured people to hospital in Police cars. This never happened before.
It ignores the fact that we are now told at RTCs that no ambulances are available. This never happened before.
I'd love to butt out and let the ambulance crew do their job. Unfortunately, we with our two day first aid course, are now having to give critical care to seriously injured people because ambulance crews are so strapped.
These are FACTS. Not opinion. not internet reproduction of training levels. They are FACT.
Do you dispute this happening or not?
Edited by Elroy Blue on Sunday 12th October 14:02
Edited by Elroy Blue on Sunday 12th October 14:03
Elroy Blue said:
Do get over yourself. Nobody has 'belittled' the work the St Johns ambulance VOLUNTEERS do.
You seem to have difficulty grasping that when someone dials 999 for a life and death situation, they want a PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED, FULLY QUALIFIED Paramedic. This believe it or not, gives a good chance of the person surviving.
Our emergency services should not be relying on anything but this.
again you deomonstrate your ignorance You seem to have difficulty grasping that when someone dials 999 for a life and death situation, they want a PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED, FULLY QUALIFIED Paramedic. This believe it or not, gives a good chance of the person surviving.
Our emergency services should not be relying on anything but this.
Volunteer is just a pay grade
The NHS has never provided a " professionally trained fully qualified Paramedic" to every 999 call, but that again is a vast over simplification health Professional wise especially given that there is one NHS service who uses RNs and Paramedics interchangably (SCAS) and other services who have Nurse as primary registration Emergency Care Practitioners. leaving that aside most services still have crews where the lead provider is an IHCD Technician not a Paramedic (or Nurse)...
As you refuse to accept this point and refuse to accept that there is a difference between a SJA first aider Volunteer and an SJA ETA or EMT ( whether paid or volunteer)
I could totally put you in a spin as there is one SJA region currently advertising for Paramedics as SJA have got a ( admissions prevention - presentation specific ) 999 contract in direct competition gainst thelocla NHS ambulance service who run a similar scheme elsewhere i nthe region
You also cannot have a situation where you do not want antything other than an NHS vehicle yet in the next breath complain that there are situations where there are waits you consider excessive for an ambulance.
There are numerous situations every day where ambulance crews cannot provide all the indicated / desirable interventions , to suggest that this is a siutauation that is solely because it was an SJA vehicle that attended - crews and vehicles that don;t try and pretend to be the NHS unlike some of the private for profit services who undertake NHS contract work ( illegal use of the crown and wheel, passing off Names, no clear company branding on uniform etc).
eccles said:
Classic 'manager' versus 'bloke at the coal face' debate.
Or the the how things should look versus how thing actually are.
I'm glad somebody gets it.Or the the how things should look versus how thing actually are.
And it seems it's only going to get worse. What all the critics seem to miss is that I, like many others who protest about the state of things are speaking out because we care about the service we provide. We cannot do that with the massive cuts that have been made and that are planned for the future.
When you're sat for 40 minutes with your fist in somebody's chest plugging the large hole and trying to stop them bleeding to death, it tends to focus the mind.
Elroy Blue said:
eccles said:
Classic 'manager' versus 'bloke at the coal face' debate.
Or the the how things should look versus how thing actually are.
I'm glad somebody gets it.Or the the how things should look versus how thing actually are.
And it seems it's only going to get worse. What all the critics seem to miss is that I, like many others who protest about the state of things are speaking out because we care about the service we provide. We cannot do that with the massive cuts that have been made and that are planned for the future.
When you're sat for 40 minutes with your fist in somebody's chest plugging the large hole and trying to stop them bleeding to death, it tends to focus the mind.
There are so many more stories in the press about unacceptable waiting times for ambulances, the reports of droves of paramedics leaving etc etc. It looks almost deliberate so the private sector can swoop in and save the nation!
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