5 Year Old Cancer Patient Abducted By Parents From Hospital!

5 Year Old Cancer Patient Abducted By Parents From Hospital!

Author
Discussion

andoverben

429 posts

239 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
<snip>

2. the Kings did a 'flounce' when Legal involvement was suggested

3. I think Mr King appears to have an unrealistically positive view of the benefits of Proton beam therapy, if it is indicated for Aysha , however his refusal to engage or a accept a Second Opinion may have delayed the referral process.

4. I think Mr king has anrealistically negative view of the side effects and sequalae of treatments - this is why People are often advised not to google their condition becasue in some cases the woo, quackeryt and barely understood but highly emotive stories of people who have oncommonly severe sequalae to treatment are the ones ... add in the who correlation does not imply causality and all the other misapprehensions that lay people have about things , plus of course this very dramatic 'flounce' ...
I don't know whether you have children or not, but as the father of two daughters I can assure you that if I was in there circumstances where I had significant doubts about the treatments been advised and when I questioned was told that if I kept rocking the boat any decision making on my child would be taken away from me I can assure you I would have 'flounced' and dome exactly the same as he has done. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of Parents here would also.

I have been in a situation (although thankfully much less serious) where I have lost confidence in the Doctors treating my Daughter in Hospital (as the new parents of a 2 Day old) and I can tell you that when the Night staff came on and read the notes and examined her and said to be honest I am not sure she does have what is been suggested and you may be able to take her home. My wife and I snatched her up and ran, literally ran, out of the hospital. The Day Staff had not connected the machine correctly and so had misdiagnosed her based on the readings it was given. The Feeling of blind panic as you watch a situation escalate in front of you is not something I would wish on anyone.

I had read (although not sure where now) that they had a Property in Spain. I had assumed that they were hotfooting it to Spain to be able to put that House on the Market so they could then take the money to a Hospital to do the Therapy they want.

This could not be further from Child Neglect if it tried. I don't see that the Police could do anything different given the information they had to start with. However it can't/shouldn't be that difficult to say actually we have made a bit of a mistake we don't need them now please let them go so they can get the treatment they need.

Thats better, sorry got the brackets in the wrong place I think.


Edited by andoverben on Monday 1st September 08:17

TheSnitch

2,342 posts

153 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
metrofour said:
What I find even sadder ironically is that if he needed a transfusion they would let him die-so I assume the state would step in and prevent that also?
There has been no indication whatsoever that their religion has played any part in their decision making or that they would do as you suggest. It is rather akin to assuming that if someone is a Roman Catholic they won't ever use artificial means of contraception.

9.3

1,133 posts

191 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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“Officers from Hampshire Constabulary arrived in Malaga on Sunday night to interview the couple as the force defended its actions despite finding the youngster well cared for."

Would that the police got off the mark so quickly to get to Rotherham. Possibly Costa Del Sol a tad more attractive?

metrofour

98 posts

183 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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TheSnitch said:
There has been no indication whatsoever that their religion has played any part in their decision making or that they would do as you suggest. It is rather akin to assuming that if someone is a Roman Catholic they won't ever use artificial means of contraception.
Didn't say there was.But unless they're part time,"when it suits" JWs then they would let him die and the state would not allow this,correct? actually don't know the answer but I'd hope they would step in.

bitchstewie

50,782 posts

209 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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There's still something a little troubling about many of the new stories tone this morning "taken without doctors consent" "taken without doctors permission" and so on rather than "taken against doctors advice".

I don't have children so won't pretend I know what I'd do in their situation but they don't come across as wanting to do anything but what they consider the best for the lad - it seems laughable that they're looking at being extradited for child neglect when you look at cases such as.. well an incident in Portugal leaps to mind without having to think too hard.

pcvdriver

1,819 posts

198 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
bhstewie said:
There's still something a little troubling about many of the new stories tone this morning "taken without doctors consent" "taken without doctors permission" and so on rather than "taken against doctors advice".

I don't have children so won't pretend I know what I'd do in their situation but they don't come across as wanting to do anything but what they consider the best for the lad - it seems laughable that they're looking at being extradited for child neglect when you look at cases such as.. well an incident in Portugal leaps to mind without having to think too hard.
But the in case you mention - they were doctors "and know better - so just run along now"....... Imagine what would have happened to let's "Jobless Kev n Tracey from Bradford" (apologies to any Kevins or Traceys from Bradford who happen to be out of work at the moment for using you as namesakes) if they'd left their kids unattended.

I hope the authorities see common sense in this case - the parents must have been at the end of their wits, to have taken such action to find alternatives to the clinical procedures offered to them in this country.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
TheSnitch said:
mph1977 said:
TheSnitch said:
<snip> You keep insisting this family are embracing ''woo'' therapies - perhaps you could point me to that, as I have seen no such evidence.
i have not done so and i resent your implication ,

again at pain of labouringthe point, from the Video Mr King has put on You tube several things are very apparent to anyone who has any understanding of the operational realities of healthcare delivery and any understanding of grieving processes

1. Mr king is Angry - this is understandable no one wants their child to have a life threatening / life limiting condition

2. the Kings did a 'flounce' when Legal involvement was suggested

3. I think Mr King appears to have an unrealistically positive view of the benefits of Proton beam therapy, if it is indicated for Aysha , however his refusal to engage or a accept a Second Opinion may have delayed the referral process.

4. I think Mr king has anrealistically negative view of the side effects and sequalae of treatments - this is why People are often advised not to google their condition becasue in some cases the woo, quackeryt and barely understood but highly emotive stories of people who have oncommonly severe sequalae to treatment are the ones ... add in the who correlation does not imply causality and all the other misapprehensions that lay people have about things , plus of course this very dramatic 'flounce' ...
Now let's look at what you ACTUALLY said earlier

''it's quite clear that Mr King has decided regardless of the actual clinical picture that proton beam treatment is a magic bullet.

He is obviously angry with the fact his son has had this diagnosis and has chosen to take it out on the Clinicians who are treating his son.

he also seems to have swallowed all the kooks and quackery that float about the Internet - there is a very good reason that patients are advised not avoid the internet for 'research' on conditions becasue of the amount of utter utter ste that is put out by none credible sources. ''

I think we can all observe that you have in fact edited your earlier comments which I have quoted above where you did, quite clearly, indicate that. So resent away.

I would also be grateful if you could address the other matter I highlighted, with regards to your comment that the effects of treatment cannot be predicted for the individual.

I must say it stikes me that Mr King is far more measured and far less angry than your good self. Don't bother with your ''You don't know what it's like'' diatribe either. As a former NHS employee I can assure you I know precisely what it's like.
Game, set and match to the Snitch, methinks......... wink

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
Game, set and match to the Snitch, methinks......... wink
if that had come from someone who had engendered the slightest amount of respect rather than unREALIST123 , i might be worried.

Oddly enough Foppo's post has borne out exactly rthe point i meade about the risks of being taken in by the quackery and woo of the internet 'experts' - I've met plenty of patients who probably can be trusted to google their own condition, by and larger these people were well educated, understood research methodology, the application of statistics in science / research and could read academic papers ( or more pertinently identify a faux or pseudo academic paper or piecve from 20 paces) - i've also met plenty of people who despite being apparently intelligent and holding responsible jobs who re-post Britain first ste and believe man down the pub stories ...

0000

13,812 posts

190 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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Point being made on the Wright stuff that the police are all over this in stark contrast to the Rotherham revelations.

audidoody

8,595 posts

255 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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Don't EVER goggle the internet for information about your symptoms. I did and was convinced a severe shoulder pain meant I had heart disease, lung cancer, and multiple sclerosis. It was a adhesive capsulitis which went away after six sessions of physio.

rover 623gsi

5,230 posts

160 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
way back in 2000 my dad phoned me and said he had cancer. The next day I searched the internet and came to the sad conclusion that he was likely to be dead within three months. He actually died seven weeks after the initial phone call. During that time, I found the advice and information that came from the medical professionals to be, at worst, useless, and at best, indifferent.

My sympathies in this tragic case, are wholly with the parents and their young child. Sadly, it seems that whatever happens, there is not going to be a happy ending.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
audidoody said:
Don't EVER goggle the internet for information about your symptoms. I did and was convinced a severe shoulder pain meant I had heart disease, lung cancer, and multiple sclerosis. It was a adhesive capsulitis which went away after six sessions of physio.
guess what another person pointing out that the internet is full of quackery and woo on topics medicla and should be taken very carefully unless you have a very good tgrouding in evaluating research and know how things can be spun ...

this is also where the frustration with NHS reDirect and 111 comes from 'expert systems' require experts to operate them , not as we saw in the early days of NHS direct jaded and burned out Nursing staff who did have experience of face to face advanced practice or as we are seeing with 111 and it;s reliance o nthe expert system and the band 3 or agency call takers to conclude significant numbers of calls.

audidoody

8,595 posts

255 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Don't EVER goggle the internet for information about your symptoms. I did and was convinced a severe shoulder pain meant I had heart disease, lung cancer, and multiple sclerosis. It was a adhesive capsulitis which went away after six sessions of physio.

Rude-boy

22,227 posts

232 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
Well a weekend has passed since I commented on this thread the other day.

It would appear that there is (was) hope for the child and it wasn't quite as I thought it might be on Friday, one last hoora with the family rather than a long drawn out final chapter.

Looking back on the comments over the weekend I feel that, whilst I would like to think that I would have handled the situation better than the Parents, in their situation I find it incredibly hard to criticise their intent and actions.

On the other hand the actions of the Media (yet again), the Hospital and, to a much lesser degree, the Police I find distasteful in the extreme. The net result of this is that right now we have parents in custody on a charge that the CPS would be very 'brave' to run to court, a further erosion of public trust in the advice of professionals and a young boy dying in a strange land with people who he does not know and can likely hardly ever understand.

The Police have been placed in a catch 22 here so I have to find them guilty of nothing more than being pawns in a game much bigger than them. The Media are utterly unreliable and whilst they are often our main source of information should always be viewed with high suspicion - they are not here to report news factually, they would rather make it and above all they are in the business of selling copy, which is not the same as telling the truth, or even being accurate. The actions of the Hospital and the doctors in this case appear beyond highly reprehensible. Threatening court action against the family? Leading the 'Abduction' crusade on grounds slightly more shaky than Russia's claim on eastern Ukraine. Deliberately misleading people over the feeding device (Bill even mentioned on Friday that the parents may well have picked up a charger on the way out).

All in all no one is a winner from all of this, least of all a poor, sick and confused 5 year old little boy who may now never get to spend time alone with his loving parents.

No doubt 'lessons will be learnt' rolleyes

nellyleelephant

2,705 posts

233 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
audidoody said:
Don't EVER goggle the internet for information about your symptoms. I did and was convinced a severe shoulder pain meant I had heart disease, lung cancer, and multiple sclerosis. It was a adhesive capsulitis which went away after six sessions of physio.
We heard you the first time! Seems like your memory is the real problem! wink

Rude-boy

22,227 posts

232 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
Oddly enough Foppo's post has borne out exactly rthe point i meade about the risks of being taken in by the quackery and woo of the internet 'experts' - I've met plenty of patients who probably can be trusted to google their own condition, by and larger these people were well educated, understood research methodology, the application of statistics in science / research and could read academic papers ( or more pertinently identify a faux or pseudo academic paper or piecve from 20 paces) - i've also met plenty of people who despite being apparently intelligent and holding responsible jobs who re-post Britain first ste and believe man down the pub stories ...
As a professional the Internet is a bane and a blessing in my field. I can not speak for the medical world but can say that when I was having some kidney issues the first thing I did was see a doctor. She had me in a consultant's office within a few days and they discussed some likely issues that might be the cause of my problem. He encouraged me to look into and research this further on the internet and gave me a few starting points.

I suspect that he deemed me likely to be capable of sorting the wheat from the chaff but one thing is certain, I was a lot more relaxed and accepting of the issues than I would have been with only the short conversations I had had with him for reading further.

dickymint

24,097 posts

257 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
nellyleelephant said:
audidoody said:
Don't EVER goggle the internet for information about your symptoms. I did and was convinced a severe shoulder pain meant I had heart disease, lung cancer, and multiple sclerosis. It was a adhesive capsulitis which went away after six sessions of physio.
We heard you the first time! Seems like your memory is the real problem! wink
I Googled 'memory problems'....... it's the onset of Alzheimers I tell you spin

mitzy

13,857 posts

196 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
So if the little mite was all ok when found
Im sure he wont be now stuck in a spanish hospital on his own ,without his parents near him or allowed to visit?

Im not a parent but FFS has the world gone mad?

johnxjsc1985

15,948 posts

163 months

Monday 1st September 2014
quotequote all
mitzy said:
So if the little mite was all ok when found
Im sure he wont be now stuck in a spanish hospital on his own ,without his parents near him or allowed to visit?

Im not a parent but FFS has the world gone mad?
Yes it has.
Can you imagine the difficulty the parents find themselves in with the full weight of the state bearing down on them.

Getragdogleg

8,737 posts

182 months

Monday 1st September 2014
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The state is unfit for purpose and has become an overbearing entity.