5 Year Old Cancer Patient Abducted By Parents From Hospital!
Discussion
Rude-boy said:
Well a weekend has passed since I commented on this thread the other day.
It would appear that there is (was) hope for the child and it wasn't quite as I thought it might be on Friday, one last hoora with the family rather than a long drawn out final chapter.
Looking back on the comments over the weekend I feel that, whilst I would like to think that I would have handled the situation better than the Parents, in their situation I find it incredibly hard to criticise their intent and actions.
On the other hand the actions of the Media (yet again), the Hospital and, to a much lesser degree, the Police I find distasteful in the extreme. The net result of this is that right now we have parents in custody on a charge that the CPS would be very 'brave' to run to court, a further erosion of public trust in the advice of professionals and a young boy dying in a strange land with people who he does not know and can likely hardly ever understand.
The Police have been placed in a catch 22 here so I have to find them guilty of nothing more than being pawns in a game much bigger than them. The Media are utterly unreliable and whilst they are often our main source of information should always be viewed with high suspicion - they are not here to report news factually, they would rather make it and above all they are in the business of selling copy, which is not the same as telling the truth, or even being accurate. The actions of the Hospital and the doctors in this case appear beyond highly reprehensible. Threatening court action against the family? Leading the 'Abduction' crusade on grounds slightly more shaky than Russia's claim on eastern Ukraine. Deliberately misleading people over the feeding device (Bill even mentioned on Friday that the parents may well have picked up a charger on the way out).
All in all no one is a winner from all of this, least of all a poor, sick and confused 5 year old little boy who may now never get to spend time alone with his loving parents.
No doubt 'lessons will be learnt'
They'd even stocked up on extra sachets online.It would appear that there is (was) hope for the child and it wasn't quite as I thought it might be on Friday, one last hoora with the family rather than a long drawn out final chapter.
Looking back on the comments over the weekend I feel that, whilst I would like to think that I would have handled the situation better than the Parents, in their situation I find it incredibly hard to criticise their intent and actions.
On the other hand the actions of the Media (yet again), the Hospital and, to a much lesser degree, the Police I find distasteful in the extreme. The net result of this is that right now we have parents in custody on a charge that the CPS would be very 'brave' to run to court, a further erosion of public trust in the advice of professionals and a young boy dying in a strange land with people who he does not know and can likely hardly ever understand.
The Police have been placed in a catch 22 here so I have to find them guilty of nothing more than being pawns in a game much bigger than them. The Media are utterly unreliable and whilst they are often our main source of information should always be viewed with high suspicion - they are not here to report news factually, they would rather make it and above all they are in the business of selling copy, which is not the same as telling the truth, or even being accurate. The actions of the Hospital and the doctors in this case appear beyond highly reprehensible. Threatening court action against the family? Leading the 'Abduction' crusade on grounds slightly more shaky than Russia's claim on eastern Ukraine. Deliberately misleading people over the feeding device (Bill even mentioned on Friday that the parents may well have picked up a charger on the way out).
All in all no one is a winner from all of this, least of all a poor, sick and confused 5 year old little boy who may now never get to spend time alone with his loving parents.
No doubt 'lessons will be learnt'
I don't see that the hospital could much different. They have a family intent on trying to cross Europe in their family car with a seriously ill child chasing a cure the doctors don't believe is essential. Given the apparent breakdown in their relationship with the parents they should have been organising a second opinion, but once the family had fled trying to find the child was a priority.
As it turned out the family were prepared and made it to Marbella but kids can go down hill very quickly and the outcry if they'd ignored the situation and the kid had died would be far worse.
mph1977 said:
audidoody said:
Don't EVER goggle the internet for information about your symptoms. I did and was convinced a severe shoulder pain meant I had heart disease, lung cancer, and multiple sclerosis. It was a adhesive capsulitis which went away after six sessions of physio.
guess what another person pointing out that the internet is full of quackery and woo on topics medicla and should be taken very carefully unless you have a very good tgrouding in evaluating research and know how things can be spun ... this is also where the frustration with NHS reDirect and 111 comes from 'expert systems' require experts to operate them , not as we saw in the early days of NHS direct jaded and burned out Nursing staff who did have experience of face to face advanced practice or as we are seeing with 111 and it;s reliance o nthe expert system and the band 3 or agency call takers to conclude significant numbers of calls.
As for you, your irrational defence of the indefensible is well known. Maybe if the NHS had fewer of your ilk and a few more who will listen to and accept the widespread, undeniable criticism that is continually made, we'd make some progress.
Ever asked yourself why people look on the internet? Why would they feel the need to if they could get timely, accurate and properly explained diagnosis face to face?
Bill said:
...
I don't see that the hospital could much different. They have a family intent on trying to cross Europe in their family car with a seriously ill child chasing a cure the doctors don't believe is essential.
...
The time for the hospital to do something different was probably before the parents felt threatened by control orders. I can't think the parents wouldn't have preferred the NHS to choose to assist in getting the treatment they wanted for their child.I don't see that the hospital could much different. They have a family intent on trying to cross Europe in their family car with a seriously ill child chasing a cure the doctors don't believe is essential.
...
What treatment that doctors in other first world countries believe could extend your child's life, when those in your own country say there's nothing more they can do, isn't essential?
Hopefully the hospital do find something different they can do, otherwise history may repeat.
Aside for a mo. Second opinions has been mentioned a lot (and 3rd opinions - that will be private then and costly!).
Been there.
Easy to get 2nd/O but if you think you can just drive off to another hospital and get one, even the dumbest would realise that's a non-starter in the NHS!
My diagnosis was imo stupid. But no, I was told it was the best one. Exchanges were not nice. So, 2nd opinion please! No problem.
Took a few weeks (note, weeks!)
At another establishment good few miles away. Lo and behold my first doc, who had arranged this 2nd opinion, knew the other. They were buddy pals and had even worked together. Same diagnosis. Guess who was not happy?
Last route, no choice. Private.
Costs of course!
Diagnosis was ridiculous I was told. What I needed was complete rest (overdoing it) and not the nasty drug suggested!
Hey, guess what? I'm right as rain now.
Been there.
Easy to get 2nd/O but if you think you can just drive off to another hospital and get one, even the dumbest would realise that's a non-starter in the NHS!
My diagnosis was imo stupid. But no, I was told it was the best one. Exchanges were not nice. So, 2nd opinion please! No problem.
Took a few weeks (note, weeks!)
At another establishment good few miles away. Lo and behold my first doc, who had arranged this 2nd opinion, knew the other. They were buddy pals and had even worked together. Same diagnosis. Guess who was not happy?
Last route, no choice. Private.
Costs of course!
Diagnosis was ridiculous I was told. What I needed was complete rest (overdoing it) and not the nasty drug suggested!
Hey, guess what? I'm right as rain now.
I do agree Bill, the Hospital were placed in a very tricky situation.
I will ignore the reports that the family had been told that if they questioned the hospital further then they would seek to stop them doing so by legal means, although that does seem to have been the spark that started the fire.
What I have found so utterly distasteful and why I find that of the 4 parties involved they are the ones with the hardest questions to answer, is the way in which they have gone about the pursuit of the family.
It appears to me that vital information about the situation in hand was withheld, and damming statements made without any caveats or firm evidence. I wonder where information on the religious leanings of the family came from? To my eyes the situation would have been dealt with a lot more effectively, and in the public interest, if they had kerbed their bruised professional egos. "Has recently undergone serious and invasive brain surgery, needs urgent medical attention as, whilst they have had the presence of mind to take the very basics, he is far sicker than that and any deterioration in his condition could be fatal before they have the chance to seek medical care. Not in trouble with the Police, just need to report to a hospital and we will discuss things from there and move forward, together, with the help and support of the family to do what is in the little boys very best interests. Sure that they mean well but this is not the best way to help their son." That sort of thing would have left people outside the circle with a very different feeling. Right now though the people from the hospital have done significant damage that extends well beyond this poor lad's plight.
On a wider view I am of the school that says a lie of omission is still a lie and that to deliberately mislead the public other than in the direct interests of National Security (real, not puffed up to excuse) should be a career ending offence.
Saddest of all for me though is that none of this changes the fact that the two people that lad needs more than anything else in the world right now are prevented from seeing him - something that is looking more and more like state sponsored spite and retribution, than the operation of law. More than a few directly involved in this have many months of soul searching ahead, some may need to look for a long time to find theirs before they can even start that process...
I will ignore the reports that the family had been told that if they questioned the hospital further then they would seek to stop them doing so by legal means, although that does seem to have been the spark that started the fire.
What I have found so utterly distasteful and why I find that of the 4 parties involved they are the ones with the hardest questions to answer, is the way in which they have gone about the pursuit of the family.
It appears to me that vital information about the situation in hand was withheld, and damming statements made without any caveats or firm evidence. I wonder where information on the religious leanings of the family came from? To my eyes the situation would have been dealt with a lot more effectively, and in the public interest, if they had kerbed their bruised professional egos. "Has recently undergone serious and invasive brain surgery, needs urgent medical attention as, whilst they have had the presence of mind to take the very basics, he is far sicker than that and any deterioration in his condition could be fatal before they have the chance to seek medical care. Not in trouble with the Police, just need to report to a hospital and we will discuss things from there and move forward, together, with the help and support of the family to do what is in the little boys very best interests. Sure that they mean well but this is not the best way to help their son." That sort of thing would have left people outside the circle with a very different feeling. Right now though the people from the hospital have done significant damage that extends well beyond this poor lad's plight.
On a wider view I am of the school that says a lie of omission is still a lie and that to deliberately mislead the public other than in the direct interests of National Security (real, not puffed up to excuse) should be a career ending offence.
Saddest of all for me though is that none of this changes the fact that the two people that lad needs more than anything else in the world right now are prevented from seeing him - something that is looking more and more like state sponsored spite and retribution, than the operation of law. More than a few directly involved in this have many months of soul searching ahead, some may need to look for a long time to find theirs before they can even start that process...
I think some of the responses in this thread give a good indication of the response that the parents may have encountered when challenging or even questioning the medics. "We know what's right, we know what's best, if you don't agree we'll slap a protection order on your child and you will have no choice but to subject your child to the treatment that we say is best".
I'm not a parent but I can see why they would pick the child up and run.
Desperately sad case which now apparently leaves a young child alone in a foreign hospital under a police guard, the parents and the siblings are precluded from even visiting the child (according to the grandmother. How is this in any way in the child's best interest?
I'm not a parent but I can see why they would pick the child up and run.
Desperately sad case which now apparently leaves a young child alone in a foreign hospital under a police guard, the parents and the siblings are precluded from even visiting the child (according to the grandmother. How is this in any way in the child's best interest?
0000 said:
The time for the hospital to do something different was probably before the parents felt threatened by control orders. I can't think the parents wouldn't have preferred the NHS to choose to assist in getting the treatment they wanted for their child.
What treatment that doctors in other first world countries believe could extend your child's life, when those in your own country say there's nothing more they can do, isn't essential?
Hopefully the hospital do find something different they can do, otherwise history may repeat.
Agreed.What treatment that doctors in other first world countries believe could extend your child's life, when those in your own country say there's nothing more they can do, isn't essential?
Hopefully the hospital do find something different they can do, otherwise history may repeat.
We don't know yet whether proton beam therapy is the best treatment for the child. We don't know if the family had contacted the hospital in Marbella and had an opinion from them in advance and weren't just relying on Google.
Getragdogleg said:
The state is unfit for purpose and has become an overbearing entity.
They're refusing to be extradited and will now be kept in Spanish custody for 72 hours says the news. They're accused of neglect. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a smear to curry public favour. When the public sector has been caught out they've never been known to smear have they?As an aside, I had a tumour when I was a kid. My mother faced an uphill struggle to get the Doctor to listen. She was right, his diagnosis was wrong.
Edited by carinaman on Monday 1st September 14:09
Rude-boy said:
stuff +
Saddest of all for me though is that none of this changes the fact that the two people that lad needs more than anything else in the world right now are prevented from seeing him - something that is looking more and more like state sponsored.
Saddest of all for me though is that none of this changes the fact that the two people that lad needs more than anything else in the world right now are prevented from seeing him - something that is looking more and more like state sponsored.
Now the child protection issue is resolved they should be left alone.Googling for diagnostic reasons is indeed silly however researching on the internet or anywhere really on the illness itself and potential treatments once you know what is wrong with you is a actually quite a sensible thing to do.
There is tons of good information out there which may be of use - proper peer reviewed studies for example or a support group forum.
When it comes to research and the internet you just have to separate the useful from the s
te.
There is tons of good information out there which may be of use - proper peer reviewed studies for example or a support group forum.
When it comes to research and the internet you just have to separate the useful from the s
te.audidoody said:
Don't EVER goggle the internet for information about your symptoms. I did and was convinced a severe shoulder pain meant I had heart disease, lung cancer, and multiple sclerosis. It was a adhesive capsulitis which went away after six sessions of physio.
carinaman said:
Getragdogleg said:
The state is unfit for purpose and has become an overbearing entity.
They're refusing to be extradited and will now be kept in Spanish custody for 72 hours says the news. They're accused of neglect. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a smear to curry public favour. When the public sector has been caught out they've never been known to smear have they?glazbagun said:
carinaman said:
Getragdogleg said:
The state is unfit for purpose and has become an overbearing entity.
They're refusing to be extradited and will now be kept in Spanish custody for 72 hours says the news. They're accused of neglect. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a smear to curry public favour. When the public sector has been caught out they've never been known to smear have they?But let's hope not the family have enough to contend with fighting the 'state'
NoNeed said:
Few stories have angered me as much as this one the whole system stinks.
Agreed.It appears that Parents have control right up to the point that they disagree with the hospital, then their guardianship is replaced by the local authority.
Nothing I've seen about this case indicates that the parents have neglected their son, or have intended harm in any way. Everything I've seen about the hospital indicates self-righteous spitefulness and a 'we know best' attitude.
I can't understand why an arrest-warrant has been placed on the parents - what crime have they actually committed, other than daring to take control of the situation and seek an alternative medical solution?
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-09-01/proton-therapy-...
Doctors also lied to this woman about Proton Beam treatment. Luckily she could raise £130,000 (quickly enough) I guess to 'legally' remove her son from an NHS hospital before his brain was fried with basic radiotheraphy.
Like I posted earlier in this thread, not being rich enough is the King's main crime.
If they had a million pounds and hired an air ambulance, took their son out of hospital 'against god's advice' and flew him directly to a proton beam centre in the US, they would have committed no crime.
Doctors also lied to this woman about Proton Beam treatment. Luckily she could raise £130,000 (quickly enough) I guess to 'legally' remove her son from an NHS hospital before his brain was fried with basic radiotheraphy.
Like I posted earlier in this thread, not being rich enough is the King's main crime.
If they had a million pounds and hired an air ambulance, took their son out of hospital 'against god's advice' and flew him directly to a proton beam centre in the US, they would have committed no crime.
tangerine_sedge said:
NoNeed said:
Few stories have angered me as much as this one the whole system stinks.
Agreed.It appears that Parents have control right up to the point that they disagree with the hospital, then their guardianship is replaced by the local authority.
Nothing I've seen about this case indicates that the parents have neglected their son, or have intended harm in any way. Everything I've seen about the hospital indicates self-righteous spitefulness and a 'we know best' attitude.
I can't understand why an arrest-warrant has been placed on the parents - what crime have they actually committed, other than daring to take control of the situation and seek an alternative medical solution?
While these loving parents are in handcuffs I don't think I ever will.
NoNeed said:
tangerine_sedge said:
NoNeed said:
Few stories have angered me as much as this one the whole system stinks.
Agreed.It appears that Parents have control right up to the point that they disagree with the hospital, then their guardianship is replaced by the local authority.
Nothing I've seen about this case indicates that the parents have neglected their son, or have intended harm in any way. Everything I've seen about the hospital indicates self-righteous spitefulness and a 'we know best' attitude.
I can't understand why an arrest-warrant has been placed on the parents - what crime have they actually committed, other than daring to take control of the situation and seek an alternative medical solution?
While these loving parents are in handcuffs I don't think I ever will.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 1st September 18:35
http://www.kidsncancer.org.uk/?page_id=86
Yet another mother that was lied to about Proton Beam theraphy.
Sorry if it looks like I am spamming this thread or ranting but I feel so strongly about the injustice this family are facing as I have kids of my own.
Where are the Philantropists in the UK. If one billionaire came out now and offered to fly little Ashya to the US to immediately commence this treatment, that would be the end of the witchhunt. But no they chose to accumulate more wealth and buy more yatchs.
It is a shame that on the same day when a football club takes on a player on a £300,000 per week wage, a liitle boy remains in a foreign hospital because his family cant afford a £100,000 life saving treatment.
Mad!
Yet another mother that was lied to about Proton Beam theraphy.
Sorry if it looks like I am spamming this thread or ranting but I feel so strongly about the injustice this family are facing as I have kids of my own.
Where are the Philantropists in the UK. If one billionaire came out now and offered to fly little Ashya to the US to immediately commence this treatment, that would be the end of the witchhunt. But no they chose to accumulate more wealth and buy more yatchs.
It is a shame that on the same day when a football club takes on a player on a £300,000 per week wage, a liitle boy remains in a foreign hospital because his family cant afford a £100,000 life saving treatment.
Mad!
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