5 Year Old Cancer Patient Abducted By Parents From Hospital!

[0000]

BIANCO said:

Money doesn’t grow on trees, ok give lets give 1000 patients £1 million treatments even if it may not save their life. And when you, me or your children turn up with a leg hanging off and all they do is put a plaster on because that’s all they can afford, sounds good.

Sure. They're not being very honest about it though, or it seems supporting parents willing to pay for treatments.

[hairykrishna]

You have to be able to make a very strong clinical case to do something which is not the standard treatment. In a lot of medulloblastoma cases the benefit over normal IMRT is going to be marginal. Trial data (so far) is a fairly small set. For protons the kid has to be sent abroad, with all the disruption that entails.

I know this is a very emotive story but people seem pretty quick to condemn the clinicians.

[Eclassy]

hairykrishna said:

You have to be able to make a very strong clinical case to do something which is not the standard treatment. In a lot of medulloblastoma cases the benefit over normal IMRT is going to be marginal. Trial data (so far) is a fairly small set. For protons the kid has to be sent abroad, with all the disruption that entails.

I know this is a very emotive story but people seem pretty quick to condemn the clinicians.

It is fine for clinicians no to recommend proton beam but what most people find disgusting is that the hospital can stop parents who wish to go ahead with legal but unrecommended private treatment.

[technogogo]

The news report that the southampton medical team have previously referred suitable cases for PBT. So presumably they have already determined this case would not receive any benefit?

[technogogo]

Eclassy said:

It is fine for clinicians no to recommend proton beam but what most people find disgusting is that the hospital can stop parents who wish to go ahead with legal but unrecommended private treatment.

Do you mean a recommended treatment that would be guaranteed to work? Or any I recommended treatment at the parents complete discretion?

[mph1977]

Eclassy said:

<snip>I guess to 'legally' remove her son from an NHS hospital before his brain was fried with basic radiotheraphy.

<snip>

what a suprprise we'vbe got eclassy joining unREALIST in their blind advocatign of things they really don;t understand

as i have said previously there is a lot of quackery and woo out there about proven treatment , lots of scare stories and use of threatening and ominous language, combined with mis understanding of statistics an basic science

unfortuantely there are alot of 'anti proven clinical therapy' people out there spouting their woo based on misunderstandings of basic science.

the Hospital are stating the King family refused a Second Opinion - NHS second Opinions are free and you cvan ask for any relevant NHS clinician to provide the second Opinion (although obviously they have to agree to do so . )

When i worked ina tertiary unit if someone requested a second opinion they were offered the choice of a consultant from one of the two closest equivalent services if thery didn;t want the Other consultant in our service to provide the Second Opinion ... in certain situations consultants from other specialities may be suggested as valid second sources of a second Opinion ... but after the flounce and the apparanent total disengagement of the Kings' with eh Hospital - which will have heightened the risks in the view of lay and legal managment within the trust

[saaby93]

Looked to me as though they didnt want to show their hand that they had an option for going to Spain so when the hospital refused, instead of going through the hassle of a second opinion which would likely say no, they jumped ship to sort it out elsewhere.
Why are the authorities surprised?

[VeeDubBigBird]

In my opinion the parents are in the wrong here.

They disappeared with a young child who was reliant on machines to keep him alive after a serious operation without notice or warning. The Hospital raise the alert after the parents fail to return in time.
What if the had been in a serious accident or after the recent headlines on child protection failings they were neglecting the child ?

They flee the country rather than call the hospital to let them know they wanted to discharge their son (hospital have stated they could have done this).

The parents are in Spain, do they have travel insurance to cover the hospital visits their son would have needed should his condition worsen whilst he's been dragged half way across Europe, and would the Spanish doctors hold his medical records.

And have any medical centres in US actually came forward and confirmed if they had approached them or made enquiries. Seems a bit suspicious especially alongside the timing of the videos they released only after they knew would be caught.

[0000]

VeeDubBigBird said:

They disappeared with a young child who was reliant on machines to keep him alive after a serious operation without notice or warning.

They had a feeding machine.

VeeDubBigBird said:

They flee the country rather than call the hospital to let them know they wanted to discharge their son (hospital have stated they could have done this).

They say the hospital threatened control orders if they disagreed.

VeeDubBigBird said:

The parents are in Spain, do they have travel insurance to cover the hospital visits their son would have needed should his condition worsen whilst he's been dragged half way across Europe, and would the Spanish doctors hold his medical records.

I don't think travel insurance makes it very far up the risk assessment ladder for a child with months to live, but he's only gone to Spain. They don't have the medical records yet though.

VeeDubBigBird said:

And have any medical centres in US actually came forward and confirmed if they had approached them or made enquiries. Seems a bit suspicious especially alongside the timing of the videos they released only after they knew would be caught.

A Czech one has, which is where I gather they intended on taking him, haven't heard about a US one. They want the medical records before going ahead, although they seem to know enough to think the treatment is appropriate.

[VeeDubBigBird]

Reply to 0000:

They had a feeding machine.

fitted by the hospital that was battery powered, and knew it had a limited life span.

---

They say the hospital threatened control orders if they disagreed.

hearsay from parents now facing criminal charges, and the hospital did offer the parents the option to go get a second opinion which they declined.

--

I don't think travel insurance makes it very far up the risk assessment ladder for a child with months to live

You do realize he has a 80 percent chance of survival with the current treatment, the proton treatment they risked his health for, has almost the exact same success rate.

--

A Czech one has, which is where I gather they intended on taking him, haven't heard about a US one. They want the medical records before going ahead, although they seem to know enough to think the treatment is appropriate.

How did they expect to get the medical records without giving away their location and having an extradition order placed.

--

This is a case of two idiots believing they knew more than the experts and now paying the price for risking their child's life unnecessarily.

[Pesty]

Vee dub.

You say they are facing criminal charges. Last I heard yesterday was that the cps were reviewing this as new evidence came to light.

Seems the story as reported using all kinds of emotive language like 'abducted' as in the title may not be too accurate.

There are benefits to the treatment that in Czech that they couldn't get here ( why has Czech got this and we not until 2018?)

Anyway I wouldn't be too eager to judge this until all facts are in.

Edited by Pesty on Tuesday 2nd September 08:14

[dirkgently]

VeeDubBigBird said:

Reply to 0000:

They had a feeding machine.

fitted by the hospital that was battery powered, and knew it had a limited life span.

---

They say the hospital threatened control orders if they disagreed.

hearsay from parents now facing criminal charges, and the hospital did offer the parents the option to go get a second opinion which they declined.

--

I don't think travel insurance makes it very far up the risk assessment ladder for a child with months to live

You do realize he has a 80 percent chance of survival with the current treatment, the proton treatment they risked his health for, has almost the exact same success rate.

--

A Czech one has, which is where I gather they intended on taking him, haven't heard about a US one. They want the medical records before going ahead, although they seem to know enough to think the treatment is appropriate.

How did they expect to get the medical records without giving away their location and having an extradition order placed.

--

This is a case of two idiots believing they knew more than the experts and now paying the price for risking their child's life unnecessarily.

So you will tell us what laws were broken by the parents to justify an arrest warrant.
To me the untruths seem to be coming form the Hospital.

[0000]

VeeDubBigBird said:

fitted by the hospital that was battery powered, and knew it had a limited life span.

They were using one that wasn't battery powered, they had power adaptors for it, I've heard no suggestion the lifespan was significantly limited.

VeeDubBigBird said:

hearsay from parents now facing criminal charges, and the hospital did offer the parents the option to go get a second opinion which they declined.

I'd decline it if they threatened control orders too.

VeeDubBigBird said:

You do realize he has a 80 percent chance of survival with the current treatment, the proton treatment they risked his health for, has almost the exact same success rate.

How did they expect to get the medical records without giving away their location and having an extradition order placed.

This is a case of two idiots believing they knew more than the experts and now paying the price for risking their child's life unnecessarily.

Almost the same but better and, most significantly to the father, with far less side effects, including for secondary tumours. They took medical advice from experts other than those at the hospital, weighed it up and took the best course of action they saw fit. Even if you think they're idiots and took the wrong medical option that's no reason to lock them up. And it's the child who's really paying the price.

As for getting the medical records without giving away their location - they should be entitled to their sons medical records and shouldn't have had to worry about their location!

[scorp]

dirkgently said:

So you will tell us what laws were broken by the parents to justify an arrest warrant.
To me the untruths seem to be coming form the Hospital.

It'll be some kind of child abuse law.

[andoverben]

VeeDubBigBird said:

Reply to 0000:


This is a case of two idiots believing they knew more than the experts and now paying the price for risking their child's life unnecessarily.

Whether you think they are idiots or not (I personally do not, I think when you are a Parent backed into a corner you will do whatever you think is right and to hell with the consequences) The Solution to this problem is clearly not to separate Ashya from his Parents who are clearly not neglecting him.

In hindsight should they have send a note/EMail to say we are going to Spain to Sell our Property and will make our own arrangements for our Sons Treatment don't worry we have both a Charger for the Feeding Machine and have stocked up on his Food? Perhaps. However if the Hospital has threatened a Court Order if they don't go through with the Treatment they don't want then perhaps that is a little understandable why they wanted to give as little information to the Hospital as possible.

It has been pointed out on here that a Hospital doesn't grant a Court Order a Judge does, in that circumstance who do you think they are going to believe a Panicked Parent or a Doctor? Would you take that chance? I wouldn't.

[dirkgently]

scorp said:

dirkgently said:

So you will tell us what laws were broken by the parents to justify an arrest warrant.
To me the untruths seem to be coming form the Hospital.

It'll be some kind of child abuse law.

Ah, like the ones that they ignore for 18 years.

[Murph7355]

0000 said:

BIANCO said:

Money doesn’t grow on trees, ok give lets give 1000 patients £1 million treatments even if it may not save their life. And when you, me or your children turn up with a leg hanging off and all they do is put a plaster on because that’s all they can afford, sounds good.

Sure. They're not being very honest about it though, or it seems supporting parents willing to pay for treatments.

Honesty about the NHS is very hard to come by as it always gets very emotional (understandable).

It's unsustainable as it is currently operated. It tries to cover too much for too many people. And with the country not having a pot to piss in, something radical needs to be done or we'll have far more than these sorts of treatment to worry about.

In this case, as someone else mentioned the authorities were always dawned if they did, dawned if they didn't. Hopefully the little lad won't suffer.

[dickymint]

Can i ask has the lad been diagnosed terminally ill? As stated on the Sky News banner?

[hairykrishna]

Eclassy said:

It is fine for clinicians no to recommend proton beam but what most people find disgusting is that the hospital can stop parents who wish to go ahead with legal but unrecommended private treatment.

The hospital can't. If there's significant disagreement then a court has to be involved. The court can find a different clinician to give the treatment, if necessary (or possible). There are sensible paths to take.

[0000]

dickymint said:

Can i ask has the lad been diagnosed terminally ill? As stated on the Sky News banner?

Months to live apparently. Hence the parents urgency.