5 Year Old Cancer Patient Abducted By Parents From Hospital!

[bitchstewie]

mph1977 said:

where is the signed 'self discharge' paperwork ?

absenting yourself from in-patient care without acknowledging that you are leaving counter to the advice of the accountable clinicians does not discharge the Hospital's duty of care ...

I am unsure why people have such a difficulty in understadning the concept here.

That much I can understand, presumably in case their body is discovered 2 days later in a stairwell etc.

Again though, it's the constant use of words like "permission" and in their latest press release "consent" which are troubling - it suggests that these people have done something wrong or against the rules (it's semantics but you take the point) vs. something a bit silly such as not telling the hospital when they left.

[anonymous-user]

The language used suggests that the hospital management has not yet grasped that no consent was required.

[Andy Zarse]

Breadvan72 said:

The language used suggests that the hospital management has not yet grasped that no consent was required.

No indeed, and I'm still waiting for someone to explain why the hospital staff who reported it to the police felt the need to tell terminological inexactitudes and then spin to the media. Maybe mph1977 can explain?

[mph1977]

Andy Zarse said:

Breadvan72 said:

The language used suggests that the hospital management has not yet grasped that no consent was required.

No indeed, and I'm still waiting for someone to explain why the hospital staff who reported it to the police felt the need to tell terminological inexactitudes and then spin to the media. Maybe mph1977 can explain?

The police would have been involved becasue a patient absented themselves without ( the parents in this case) telling the hospital staff that they were going. if there is concern ofr the welfare of the patient this is a matter of routine and it's policy in the trusts i have worked for. the Police are involved to check on the welfare of the individual(s) concerned and also to provide assistance if searches are necessary. The police also have the powers to effect an entry to last known / stated address etc...

the following is supposition

- the hospital did not know they had feeds or a charger for the feed pump, nor the other consumables

- while Mr King maintains that Ashya is not on any meds , the trust have not said one way or the other, even if he were on no regular medication i find it unlikely that he was not prescribed rescue / PRN meds for pain, seizure control etc etc etc.

- we do not know the exact reason Ashya is being tube fed, if his swallow is compromosied what was the Kings' plan if he were to aspirate the limited stuff he was taking orally ...

Hospital staff will be held to account by the law, civil, criminal and professional regualtory if harm comes to a patient - it is a very interestign situation as generally even if access control is put in place on a hospital ward it's access control to get back in - usually access control going out is minimal ( green 'push the mushroom' to exit pads vs keypads or swipes to get on).

the terms permission and consent are being used in an interesting manner especially asd there appeared to be no previous limitations on leave from the ward for Ashya. I do wonder if the term 'leave' is being overly read into by some commentors based o nthe use of the term in the CJS for prisoners and in the Sectioned Mental health end of Healthcare ... 'leave' as a term relating to not being somewhere is widely used and has a variety of contextual interpretations ...

[bitchstewie]

mph1977 said:

the terms permission and consent are being used in an interesting manner especially asd there appeared to be no previous limitations on leave from the ward for Ashya. I do wonder if the term 'leave' is being overly read into by some commentors based o nthe use of the term in the CJS for prisoners and in the Sectioned Mental health end of Healthcare ... 'leave' as a term relating to not being somewhere is widely used and has a variety of contextual interpretations ...

The term "consent" is used in the hospitals press release from the 2nd.

[Bill]

Consent is a tricky one. Clearly in adults the patient can leave without issue, but in paediatrics the doctor's duty of care is to the patient and not the parents. They should have got a court order in place in advance, but the Kings preempted this by removing their child without warning and fleeing the country.

[johnxjsc1985]

Bill said:

Consent is a tricky one. Clearly in adults the patient can leave without issue, but in paediatrics the doctor's duty of care is to the patient and not the parents. They should have got a court order in place in advance, but the Kings preempted this by removing their child without warning and fleeing the country.

was this child a "ward of the court"?. why would they need anything this is their child. I think some people are happy to take the word of the hospital before knowing what the facts are and there are plenty to question their actions and motives.

[bitchstewie]

Bill said:

Consent is a tricky one. Clearly in adults the patient can leave without issue, but in paediatrics the doctor's duty of care is to the patient and not the parents. They should have got a court order in place in advance, but the Kings preempted this by removing their child without warning and fleeing the country.

Respectfully, it doesn't seem like it is. In the absence of anything legal my understanding (happy to be corrected) is simple consent was not needed.

So we're back to "Was it a clever thing to do?" probably not, but there's a lot of difference between being the lead on every UK news channel for being a bit daft vs. "taking a child without consent" as by definition that implies someone needed to give that consent.

I don't want to seem like I'm hellbent on "being right on the internet" as I'm not, I just don't get why people seem not to grasp that it's a worrying precedent when words are used that make it sound as if you've done something criminal.

[Bill]

No, I think you're right, in the absence of anything legal TWOC was the wrong phrase to use.

OTOH the Drs do have a duty to protect a child from the rash actions of the parents. Normally there's time to get court orders etc, but if you suspect the parent is setting off on a journey that could well kill the child the wrong thing gets done for the right reasons.

[anonymous-user]

The hospital has denied threatening an application to court before the incident arose. The child currently remains subject to an interim wardship order granted after the departure from the hospital. This is to be reconsidered by the High Court on Monday 8 September.

[Andy Zarse]

Bill said:

...the Kings preempted this by removing their child without warning and fleeing the country.

Fleeing the country? A rather over-dramatic choice of words! Don't you mean driving to their second home in a totally legal fashion?

[Andy Zarse]

bhstewie said:

mph1977 said:

the terms permission and consent are being used in an interesting manner especially asd there appeared to be no previous limitations on leave from the ward for Ashya. I do wonder if the term 'leave' is being overly read into by some commentors based o nthe use of the term in the CJS for prisoners and in the Sectioned Mental health end of Healthcare ... 'leave' as a term relating to not being somewhere is widely used and has a variety of contextual interpretations ...

The term "consent" is used in the hospitals press release from the 2nd.

Which is why I used the term "spinning" in my initial question....

[Andy Zarse]

bhstewie said:

mph1977 said:

the terms permission and consent are being used in an interesting manner especially asd there appeared to be no previous limitations on leave from the ward for Ashya. I do wonder if the term 'leave' is being overly read into by some commentors based o nthe use of the term in the CJS for prisoners and in the Sectioned Mental health end of Healthcare ... 'leave' as a term relating to not being somewhere is widely used and has a variety of contextual interpretations ...

The term "consent" is used in the hospitals press release from the 2nd.

Which is why I used the term "spinning" in my initial question....

[Bill]

Andy Zarse said:

Fleeing the country? A rather over-dramatic choice of words! Don't you mean driving to their second home in a totally legal fashion?

And what could be more normal than removing your child from hospital halfway through treatment to go on your summer holiday?

[Andy Zarse]

Bill said:

Andy Zarse said:

Fleeing the country? A rather over-dramatic choice of words! Don't you mean driving to their second home in a totally legal fashion?

And what could be more normal than removing your child from hospital halfway through treatment to go on your summer holiday?

You know full well that's not what happened. You're making yourself look silly now.

[carinaman]

Did I hear it correctly lastnight, that the 'battery' that could have expired at any moment was swapped for the one in their car? Ashya's food pump was powered by a 12V car battery? The same as the 12V car batteries that some PHers buy online?

At least they said the battery could run out of charge and not explode. So the plumbing between the pump and patient is transparent or translucent so it's operation can be determined by a simple visual inspection?

Can't they get the parents on a theft charge for the food pump and battery?

[johnxjsc1985]

Bill said:

Andy Zarse said:

Fleeing the country? A rather over-dramatic choice of words! Don't you mean driving to their second home in a totally legal fashion?

And what could be more normal than removing your child from hospital halfway through treatment to go on your summer holiday?

but he wasn't getting the desired treatment was he?.

[JuniorD]

When it comes to making the correct medical judgements on the treatment of patients like this, the NHS are as good as you could want. To take your kid out of hospital against medical advice to pursue alternative private treatment in another European country must require a large degree of desperation. Or stupidity or naivety. Either way, I do feel awfully sorry for the parents and the boy for their situation.

[VeeDubBigBird]

Andy Zarse said:

Absolutely none of the above justifies the use of the draconian European Arrest Warrant. Surely the CPS and Chief Constable knew it was a sledgehammer to crack a nut? How would extraditing the parents ever have helped the child? It was, and remains, a quite disgraceful abuse of power.

Was this case handled correctly?

No. This open a much wider discuss, about the state and it powers in relation to the individual firstly and secondly, the determination of and how these powers are exercised and finally the oversight on them.

Agree with this point, however the media frenzy and sob stories from the family about their persecution will have blinded most to give an accurate judgement. This explains why so many in the care community are afraid to make any decisions because of this kind of backlash and will lead to another Rotherham incident.

Asi said above i do agree this needs to be reviewed, and it could have been handled much better, but hindsight is a wonderful thing and what would be your response to a critically ill child disappearing who was reliant on machines to survive.

[Pommygranite]

johnxjsc1985 said:

Bill said:

Andy Zarse said:

Fleeing the country? A rather over-dramatic choice of words! Don't you mean driving to their second home in a totally legal fashion?

And what could be more normal than removing your child from hospital halfway through treatment to go on your summer holiday?

but he wasn't getting the desired treatment was he?.

Who said he wasnt?