It's socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest of us
Discussion
sidicks said:
vonuber said:
Disabled people who needed support were having their support stripped away by Atos. In one three-month period in 2012, 42% of appeals against Atos judgments were successful; but it is a process that is expensive for the taxpayer and often traumatic for the claimant. In the harsh benefit-bashing climate of austerity Britain, disability charities reported that "scrounger" rhetoric had provoked a surge in abuse towards disabled people on the streets. But the behaviour of state-funded private contractors such as Atos must surely raise the question of who the real scroungers are. It was not until April 2014 that Atos was forced to abandon the contract because of the growing backlash, but not until they had pocketed large sums of public money.
So almost 60% of claimants were previously claiming money to which they were not entitled...?FredClogs said:
Nowt both vat and paye are collected by companies not prayed by them. But you highlight the power large corporates have over government as essentially free lance tax collectors, it's one of the reasons they get sweaty with so much.
How do you work that out. PAYE is collected from the wages paid BY the companies, did you think the money just turned up unannounced? In addition company NI is paid over and above wages. VAT is paid by the company for goods and services and you can claim some back from what you collect on your goods and services. The VAT goes around and around but ultimately someone pays it. Collecting and administering VAT costs money too, particularly when HMRC collect the VAT before we've been paid it by our customers (a particularly s
tty trick perpetrated on us by Brown).Big Coffee is just the left's new variation on their Big Oil two minute hate target.
Edited by XM5ER on Tuesday 2nd September 11:24
Prawnboy said:
why can you not try to work to improve everyone's lot?
Paying 50% or more in marginal tax rates, and corporation tax on profits, high earners and profitable businesses are currently working hard to improve everyone's lot. Prawnboy said:
if the blatant, legally allowed, but morally wrong tax avoidance schemes were cracked down upon and more money came into the exchequer a case could be made for further cutting corporation tax in order to increase investment, and boost employment.
Tax avoidance as you say is lawful, so hassle politicians to get your preferred tax system in place. There will still be tax avoidance, even so, as personal allowance and ISAs etc plus various corporate approaches will always be available. Beyond that no legislation will cover every eventuality. In terms of internationalism, unless and until tax regimes are totally harmonised on a global basis, companies will do what they do. It's not clear that one size fits all approaches to managing economies works well supranationally in practice, see 'eurozone'. Lower corptax would be good, yes.
Prawnboy said:
Surely striving for the best possible solutions is more worthy of human society than the life st except it line.
The total amount of tax already being paid is one thing, the proportion wasted or subject to fraud is another (whatever the amount). Cut the waste to the bone first i.e. plug the hole in the bucket before taking more of anyone else's water.t except it line.Prawnboy said:
and is there ever a debate involving money round these parts where the 'Jealousy' card isn't played again, and again
Who knows, maybe in a parallel universe where one person's private sector income is of no concern or interest whatsoever to anyone other than themselves, their accountant and HMRC. Ptawnboy said:
It's not jealousy to point out that moving your profits out of the countries they are created in via accounting tricks is not beneficial to the society you are operating in.
Again, a cost has been identified with no attention to benefits accruing. There are jobs benefits on the positive side in terms of NI and income tax receipts, and there are unemployment costs avoided. There are also business benefits with smaller scale suppliers to the bigger outfits in many cases, which acts as a multiplier.Prawnboy said:
It is also not jealousy to point out that the bank bail-out is the opposite of capitalist ideals.
Surely such loans need to be examined not only in terms of ideology and amounts but in the context of total net cost in not doing something of that nature and/or doing something else...in other words, include benefits as well as costs.Prawnboy said:
Political will is biased toward the paymasters but it doesn't hurt to point out when these things are wrong.
Not sure what that means. If it means that political will supports the sources that support everyone else, including those who genuinely cannot support themselves, then that's exactly as it should be. Until somebody finds that damn socialist money tree, that is. If I got the wrong end of the stick, please accept my apologies in advance.Prawnboy said:
and you don't have to be a soap dodging jealous hippy on a kibutz to not want to live out your life with a 'life st, suck it up attitude'.
Nor is it helpful to indulge in blame transfer and victims of society bull.t, suck it up attitude'.Capitalism is already regulated. What we need more than additional regulation relates to politicians capable of managing the fruits of capitalism better. Unfortunately the smartest people aren't likely to be going into politics any time soon. Whose fault is that and what's the solution?
turbobloke said:
Capitalism is already regulated. What we need more than additional regulation relates to politicians capable of managing the fruits of capitalism better. Unfortunately the smartest people aren't likely to be going into politics any time soon. Whose fault is that and what's the solution?
The regulation wasn't working though,(and as far as i am aware has not been meaningfully changed), we don't need additional regulation, but we do need robust regulation.Managing the fruits of capitalism must include making sure all the fruit is harvested as well as using it correctly. No good people scrumping from the farm and claiming they owe apples elsewhere, (mmmmm cider metaphors).
I think the proportion of smart people in politics probably isn't that different to the ordinary world, but unfortunately so is the level of self interest.
And to the first point i salute all the tax payers high & low rate, and would hope that the, (legal or not), avoiding corporations will have those loopholes closed through international co-operation,(pipe dream as it maybe),in order that we can demand all our tax bills can come down.
And i never buy the argument by said companies that they collect PAYE & NI etc so are doing us a favour. In a Capitalist society that has money flowing within it, someone will open a business to get hold of some of that money, if starbucks pulled out of the UK more coffee shops would open and hire barristas, because people want milky hot drinks, that's the reason starbucks are here in the first place, because there is money to be made selling stuff. To then claim not to make a profit when the independent coffee shop across the road is doing just fine is a farce, and should be pointed out as often as possible.
Prawnboy said:
turbobloke said:
Capitalism is already regulated. What we need more than additional regulation relates to politicians capable of managing the fruits of capitalism better. Unfortunately the smartest people aren't likely to be going into politics any time soon. Whose fault is that and what's the solution?
The regulation wasn't working though,(and as far as i am aware has not been meaningfully changed), we don't need additional regulation, but we do need robust regulation.Managing the fruits of capitalism must include making sure all the fruit is harvested as well as using it correctly. No good people scrumping from the farm and claiming they owe apples elsewhere, (mmmmm cider metaphors).
I think the proportion of smart people in politics probably isn't that different to the ordinary world, but unfortunately so is the level of self interest.
And to the first point i salute all the tax payers high & low rate, and would hope that the, (legal or not), avoiding corporations will have those loopholes closed through international co-operation,(pipe dream as it maybe),in order that we can demand all our tax bills can come down.
And i never buy the argument by said companies that they collect PAYE & NI etc so are doing us a favour. In a Capitalist society that has money flowing within it, someone will open a business to get hold of some of that money, if starbucks pulled out of the UK more coffee shops would open and hire barristas, because people want milky hot drinks, that's the reason starbucks are here in the first place, because there is money to be made selling stuff. To then claim not to make a profit when the independent coffee shop across the road is doing just fine is a farce, and should be pointed out as often as possible.
XM5ER said:
Prawnboy said:
why can you not try to work to improve everyone's lot?
Because they are not my responsibility as I am not theirs.how far should one's circle extend?
you?
your family?
your friends?
work collegues?
friends of your family?
friends of your friends?
neighbours?
street?
village/town?
turbobloke said:
Could you possibly also address other implcations of corporate tax avoidance as mentioned in my post, such as the lack of any chance of an effective globally harmonised tax system, not forgetting the lack of any remote chance of even an ineffective one? Companies can locate where they wish - and countries compete, as well as individual businesses. The alternative isn't worth thinking about.
I did say above that a global system is probably a pipe dream. Yes companies can locate where they wish, but we know they only do it on paper, the coffee is grown in one place sold in another and the profits are placed in a third for tax purposes.
The alternative is worth thinking about. The alternative is to keep reminding people to shop elsewhere, money talks, every high street has more than one coffee shop. Choose to spend your money in a competitor that doesn't practice those tax methods. Coffee will still get bought in place #1 and sold in #2. If a corporation won't play fair and we know about it then we vote with our wallets. The problem here of course is the short term want of hot milky drink tends to outweigh anything else in peoples minds.
But every time it's mentioned is a good thing i think.
It doesn't help when the rabid smash 'em all brigade put normal people off the subject too.
prawnboy said:
The alternative is worth thinking about. The alternative is to keep reminding people to shop elsewhere, money talks, every high street has more than one coffee shop. Choose to spend your money in a competitor that doesn't practice those tax methods.
Is the answer. If it bothers you, shop elsewhere.otolith said:
prawnboy said:
The alternative is worth thinking about. The alternative is to keep reminding people to shop elsewhere, money talks, every high street has more than one coffee shop. Choose to spend your money in a competitor that doesn't practice those tax methods.
Is the answer. If it bothers you, shop elsewhere.Having said that it is down to our Government to make changes which may bear tax fruit.
otolith said:
prawnboy said:
The alternative is worth thinking about. The alternative is to keep reminding people to shop elsewhere, money talks, every high street has more than one coffee shop. Choose to spend your money in a competitor that doesn't practice those tax methods.
Is the answer. If it bothers you, shop elsewhere.crankedup said:
Correct and simple. IIRC people did exactly that, choosing to buy their coffee elsewhere.
Not around here. There was a small coterie of undoubtedly sincere born again middle class hippies chanting something to a queue snaking out the door. People were laughing at these well-off time rich innocents, while buying stuff as usual. It was so notable I posted about it on PH at the time in one of the protester threads.turbobloke said:
crankedup said:
turbobloke said:
crankedup said:
...He manages to hit the nail on the head in a factual (hyper) style that leaves detractors unable to respond in anything other than derisory comment...
Either you haven't read the thread, or you just typed that out of wishful thinking. It just aint so. There are substantive responses there to be read and in a relatively short thread there's no need to repeat content that can be found easily.Sure there are plenty of detractors, and the nature of the author is diagnosed in many ways
but they're making valid points around various errors - these replies are then subjected to the type of response you describe. You must have missed the irony as well, somehow.crankedup said:
The guy tells it as it is and I for one wish there were others as straight talking as O.J. I stand by my original post, as you might expect of me
He doesn't tell it as it is. It's a biased account which is lacking in many ways.Your original post doesn't do the thread justice. See comments in this thread from sidicks, me, Murph7355 and others.
Posts from others can be taken forward by the respective PHers as they wish; to date nothing has appeared in response to my post yesterday about errors of omission.
It's a dreadful piece, little more than propaganda, which is part of the reason why it appeals to those for whom reality offers little comfort. E-, fail.
turbobloke said:
otolith said:
prawnboy said:
The alternative is worth thinking about. The alternative is to keep reminding people to shop elsewhere, money talks, every high street has more than one coffee shop. Choose to spend your money in a competitor that doesn't practice those tax methods.
Is the answer. If it bothers you, shop elsewhere.crankedup said:
Correct and simple. IIRC people did exactly that, choosing to buy their coffee elsewhere.
Not around here. There was a small coterie of undoubtedly sincere born again middle class hippies chanting something to a queue snaking out the door. People were laughing at these well-off time rich innocents, while buying stuff as usual. It was so notable I posted about it on PH at the time in one of the protester threads.and some people 'regardless of class' decide to take some social action no matter how small is a good thing as far as i'm concerned.
turbobloke said:
otolith said:
prawnboy said:
The alternative is worth thinking about. The alternative is to keep reminding people to shop elsewhere, money talks, every high street has more than one coffee shop. Choose to spend your money in a competitor that doesn't practice those tax methods.
Is the answer. If it bothers you, shop elsewhere.crankedup said:
Correct and simple. IIRC people did exactly that, choosing to buy their coffee elsewhere.
Not around here. There was a small coterie of undoubtedly sincere born again middle class hippies chanting something to a queue snaking out the door. People were laughing at these well-off time rich innocents, while buying stuff as usual. It was so notable I posted about it on PH at the time in one of the protester threads.Where I live we are fortunate to be blessed with a multitude of small individual businesses (Bury St Edmunds)the main shopping area has the most diverse range of individual shops to be found, alongside the usual boring chain's selling the usual identikit rubbish of course. No starstrucks though, least I haven't come across one locally. Never seen any demonstrations of any nature in town either other than cooking!
otolith said:
His job is not to stir up debate, his job is to confirm the pre-existing opinions of the Guardian readership, giving them a warm glow of righteous indignation over their morning muesli.
Indeed you have a point, but no different in the intent to the pompous and pious narrative to be found in ones Torygrapth.
Prawnboy said:
XM5ER said:
Prawnboy said:
why can you not try to work to improve everyone's lot?
Because they are not my responsibility as I am not theirs.how far should one's circle extend?
you?
your family?
your friends?
work collegues?
friends of your family?
friends of your friends?
neighbours?
street?
village/town?
crankedup said:
otolith said:
His job is not to stir up debate, his job is to confirm the pre-existing opinions of the Guardian readership, giving them a warm glow of righteous indignation over their morning muesli.
Indeed you have a point, but no different in the intent to the pompous and pious narrative to be found in ones Torygrapth.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100192715...
XM5ER said:
Prawnboy said:
XM5ER said:
Prawnboy said:
why can you not try to work to improve everyone's lot?
Because they are not my responsibility as I am not theirs.how far should one's circle extend?
you?
your family?
your friends?
work collegues?
friends of your family?
friends of your friends?
neighbours?
street?
village/town?
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