Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
From FB (where else).
Yes Pleb said:
"I always find that if you flip the debate around with a no or undecided voter it always has the desired result. Try this next time you speak with a no voter, ask them how they would vote in this situation.....there can only be one outcome.
Imagine Scotland was already independent and we were about to have a referendum on whether to join a union with the rest of the UK.
Could the Pro-union side convince us that getting together would be better when we were told what would happen to Scotland after such a union? Some bullet points from the campaign…
At this point I'm thinking it would obviously depend on what an independent Scotland was actually like to live in and if the Yes lot would tell us then we could make a judgement...Imagine Scotland was already independent and we were about to have a referendum on whether to join a union with the rest of the UK.
Could the Pro-union side convince us that getting together would be better when we were told what would happen to Scotland after such a union? Some bullet points from the campaign…
Yes Pleb said:
-Your main Parliament will move 600 miles away, and your MPs will be in a tiny minority & will therefore have limited ability to effect policy on your behalf
-Scotland will get a government it didn’t vote for.
-All of your oil and gas revenues will be handed over to the treasury in London.
-Even though not 1 inch of track will touch Scottish soil your taxpayers will contribute £4.2bn to the HS2 project.
-Your taxpayers will also subsidise the crossrail project to the tune of £4.2bn
-The biggest nuclear weapons facility in Western Europe will be built on the river Clyde, just 30 miles from your largest city.
-Even though you only have 8.2% of the UK’s population you will contribute 9.9% of the UK’s total tax take yet will only receive 9.3% of that tax take back to spend in Scotland (you will lose £4.4bn per year to the UK treasury)
-You will devolve all of the economic levers you have used to shape your economy directly to London and will now only have control of 7% of your economy
-Even though 79% of your MP's voted against it we will privitise your publicly owned mail service
-Even though 91% of your MPs voted against the bedroom tax in your parliament, we will impose it.
-Even though 82% of your MP's believed that a VAT increase would be detrimental to your economy, we will impose a VAT increase.
-You will join a country whose health and education services are rapidly being privatised.
-Now and again you’ll get dragged into an illegal foreign war.
-An austerity budget will be imposed from London cutting jobs and threatening vital public services even though 81% of your MP's voted against the cuts.
-The financial regulation system will be so weak and so lax that your whole economy will be brought to the brink of collapse.
-The most weak and vulnerable in society, instead of getting the protection and support they deserve will be interrogated and humiliated in an effort to get them off the meagre levels of support to which they are entitled.
Who in Scotland would vote for such a package?
Who would vote for that union?
So why would anyone vote to remain in such a union now?
This is about democratic ownership, social responsibility and the fact that Scotland on its own will be economically stronger from day one of independence....."
But the last line convinced me as it clearly has others. It's obvious really. -Scotland will get a government it didn’t vote for.
-All of your oil and gas revenues will be handed over to the treasury in London.
-Even though not 1 inch of track will touch Scottish soil your taxpayers will contribute £4.2bn to the HS2 project.
-Your taxpayers will also subsidise the crossrail project to the tune of £4.2bn
-The biggest nuclear weapons facility in Western Europe will be built on the river Clyde, just 30 miles from your largest city.
-Even though you only have 8.2% of the UK’s population you will contribute 9.9% of the UK’s total tax take yet will only receive 9.3% of that tax take back to spend in Scotland (you will lose £4.4bn per year to the UK treasury)
-You will devolve all of the economic levers you have used to shape your economy directly to London and will now only have control of 7% of your economy
-Even though 79% of your MP's voted against it we will privitise your publicly owned mail service
-Even though 91% of your MPs voted against the bedroom tax in your parliament, we will impose it.
-Even though 82% of your MP's believed that a VAT increase would be detrimental to your economy, we will impose a VAT increase.
-You will join a country whose health and education services are rapidly being privatised.
-Now and again you’ll get dragged into an illegal foreign war.
-An austerity budget will be imposed from London cutting jobs and threatening vital public services even though 81% of your MP's voted against the cuts.
-The financial regulation system will be so weak and so lax that your whole economy will be brought to the brink of collapse.
-The most weak and vulnerable in society, instead of getting the protection and support they deserve will be interrogated and humiliated in an effort to get them off the meagre levels of support to which they are entitled.
Who in Scotland would vote for such a package?
Who would vote for that union?
So why would anyone vote to remain in such a union now?
This is about democratic ownership, social responsibility and the fact that Scotland on its own will be economically stronger from day one of independence....."
Speaking as someone who is watching this at first hand and up close, the No campaign has been lacklustre and negative. It is as if they wanted to lose while appearing to try to win. The Yes campaign seems to have the weight of public support, which is what I would have expected. There was a 'Yes' festival atmosphere in Glasgow, no doubt part publicly funded. The impression I have is that Westminster still thinks that the SNP is a lunatic fringe or that Scots will be afraid to vote Yes. Fear won't come into it. This is Ally's Tartan Army all over again. As for all the bribes, they think its funny. Who did you ever know who was ever grateful for charity?
Offering Scotland more independence, Devo Max, Tax raising powers, etc is defeatist and totally missing the point. Gordon Brown is a prick, though most of you knew that already. This will be won or lost based on how Scottish, or British, people feel. There has been a gradual loss of Britishness since 1945. Events such as the MP's expenses scandal plays right into the nationalist hands. Politics has retreated inwards into introspection, selfishness and greed. The only thing that seems to matter is Boris Johnston and London. Is it any wonder that Scots may vote Yes in protest against that? The way to win this, now and in the future, is to project a British Government for the whole of Britain. Something radical. Rotate Parliament through London, Cardiff, Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle. How do you know it won't work?
We need to be proud to be British. A lot of people still are. I remember when I got the thumbs up from the local milkman when the Conservatives won the 1970 election. Heath was just another arrogant a
hole, at best, and let all these people down. All I can suggest is that they deploy the Red Arrows, extensively, over Scotland over the next two days.
We are dependent on how many sensible intelligent people there are in Scotland. The Asians won't vote Yes, God bless them, the Army won't vote Yes. As for the rest, I am pessimistic. If the Yes guys win, which I think they are going to and clearly I could be wrong, I believe that we are all fked, North and South of the border. Everyone is reduced, the Pound is devalued, we are all living in irrelevant little countries. The failure of leadership won't stop on Hadrian's Wall. The line has to be drawn and we have to move forward as Great Britain, now, or its all over.
Offering Scotland more independence, Devo Max, Tax raising powers, etc is defeatist and totally missing the point. Gordon Brown is a prick, though most of you knew that already. This will be won or lost based on how Scottish, or British, people feel. There has been a gradual loss of Britishness since 1945. Events such as the MP's expenses scandal plays right into the nationalist hands. Politics has retreated inwards into introspection, selfishness and greed. The only thing that seems to matter is Boris Johnston and London. Is it any wonder that Scots may vote Yes in protest against that? The way to win this, now and in the future, is to project a British Government for the whole of Britain. Something radical. Rotate Parliament through London, Cardiff, Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle. How do you know it won't work?
We need to be proud to be British. A lot of people still are. I remember when I got the thumbs up from the local milkman when the Conservatives won the 1970 election. Heath was just another arrogant a
hole, at best, and let all these people down. All I can suggest is that they deploy the Red Arrows, extensively, over Scotland over the next two days.We are dependent on how many sensible intelligent people there are in Scotland. The Asians won't vote Yes, God bless them, the Army won't vote Yes. As for the rest, I am pessimistic. If the Yes guys win, which I think they are going to and clearly I could be wrong, I believe that we are all f
ked, North and South of the border. Everyone is reduced, the Pound is devalued, we are all living in irrelevant little countries. The failure of leadership won't stop on Hadrian's Wall. The line has to be drawn and we have to move forward as Great Britain, now, or its all over.I haven't been following this particular pantomime (the storey or the thread) so sorry if my points are reposts, but is there anyone involved in this sorry affair who hasn't properly embarrassed themselves?
Hoping for a no here, love the idea scotland could be made to work as a proud and successful independent country rather the needy beneficiary hanger on we have today but that won't be happening with this comedian they've got. Given this, all "yes" will probably deliver is squandering billions of all of our taxes in preparations before abandoning the process at some point.
Hoping for a no here, love the idea scotland could be made to work as a proud and successful independent country rather the needy beneficiary hanger on we have today but that won't be happening with this comedian they've got. Given this, all "yes" will probably deliver is squandering billions of all of our taxes in preparations before abandoning the process at some point.
whoami said:
Aside from the fact that a No vote is likely, then no, Sheridan won't have anything to do with leading Scotland.
He's not an elected politician, he's an embarrassing sideshow; an irrelevance.
He is a bit nuts, entertaining at least.He's not an elected politician, he's an embarrassing sideshow; an irrelevance.
Is there any truth to the claims he made regarding oil on the West coast?
technodup said:
From FB (where else).
So many things wrong with all of that but just focusing on this:Yes Pleb said:
-Your taxpayers will also subsidise the crossrail project to the tune of £4.2bn
1. Crossrails total budget is £15bn
2. The Government us only paying £4bn, the rest is paid by London council tax payers, London Underground passengers and London businesses via a levy on their business rates.
3. Crossrail has cost:benefit ratio of 2 meaning that the Government will get back £2 for every £1 it puts in via GDP growth and increased taxes.
4. Transport is a devolved issue so Scottish taxpayers aren't paying for any of it.
ralphrj said:
So many things wrong with all of that but just focusing on this:
1. Crossrails total budget is £15bn
2. The Government us only paying £4bn, the rest is paid by London council tax payers, London Underground passengers and London businesses via a levy on their business rates.
3. Crossrail has cost:benefit ratio of 2 meaning that the Government will get back £2 for every £1 it puts in via GDP growth and increased taxes.
4. Transport is a devolved issue so Scottish taxpayers aren't paying for any of it.
Proportionally, Scottish taxpayers paid more for the excellent Edinburgh tram. I'm quite glad transport is devolved; that was a shocking waste of money. 1. Crossrails total budget is £15bn
2. The Government us only paying £4bn, the rest is paid by London council tax payers, London Underground passengers and London businesses via a levy on their business rates.
3. Crossrail has cost:benefit ratio of 2 meaning that the Government will get back £2 for every £1 it puts in via GDP growth and increased taxes.
4. Transport is a devolved issue so Scottish taxpayers aren't paying for any of it.
S13_Alan said:
For anyone who wonders why some of us are so angry, aside from the attempt to screw up our country, it's because that's the kind of st we have had to read for the last few months.
bingot we have had to read for the last few months.I have been told to f
k out of the country as i'm an english I was born in scotland
You cannot imagine the hatred being stirred up by these "people"
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