Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
Dog Star said:
Unfortunately, so true.As the 1964 Roy Orbison song goes, It's Over.
Burger.
Well done for putting up what is I'm sure, a post both from the head and from the heart.
As you correctly say. Let's hope the decision is the correct one.
So far in 2 hours, I've had 9 people ask to use a pen instead of a pencil...
We do have pens that they can use if they want..
Well done for putting up what is I'm sure, a post both from the head and from the heart.
As you correctly say. Let's hope the decision is the correct one.
So far in 2 hours, I've had 9 people ask to use a pen instead of a pencil...
We do have pens that they can use if they want..
Cheese Mechanic said:
I would abstain because of those decent Scots, who want no part of Salmonds hysterical shreeking spitefull circus. I have happy memories as a kid of holidays in Scotland, and more recently in the far north and Orkney. All I have come across were decent pleasant people. Why should I punish those people who have done me no slight for my own selfish ambitions? So there we are, an open and honest viewpoint from this Englishman.
Thought-provoking. My view had slowly been changing from pro-union to cut-them-the-f**k-loose, but you have a good point.Edinburger said:
Hi Beefy
That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
From someone who believes in independence and self-determination as a principal but couldn't get past the dishonest way it was presented and the shambolic planning afforded to it I also put my cross in the no box. When someone comes along who can spell out what 'better' means and how they intend doing it and the real cost (short or long term) as a consequence I may put my cross in the yes box. Until then, status quo is mine and my families best option.That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
Fair play to you Edinburger, a particularly challenging position to have taken throughout given the noers here could be as vociferous as the yessers outside - my hat is doffed.
rich1231 said:
Or does it not count at all in your eyes? The real risk here is that after a No vote, English Nationalism which has slumbered for a long time is awoken and reacts to what has been said about England over the last 18 months.
I think it very much depends on how further devolution is done. In the event of a No, they have to give it. They promised it.What would be a total disaster is just shovelling a load of extra powers to Scotland and leaving everything else much the same which I fear is the idea of some of the main politicians. That won't work and will just cause further problems down the line.
If we (as in the four parts which make up the UK) want to stay together we really need to find a new system which enables us to stay as one country but have a fair and reasonable share out of the things we want to do on our own. That does really mean moving towards a quasi federal system.
If that is what it takes then so be it. The current setup of Commons/Lords/Assmeblies/Parliaments is an unequal mess and has been on borrowed time since 1999.
rover 623gsi said:
indeed
hasn't anyone in Scotland read Animal Farm?
The problem is that the YES campaign has offered everything to everyone even though it should be obvious to these people that the promises are mutually exclusive. There's been a suspension of thought and crtiical thinking amongst so many.hasn't anyone in Scotland read Animal Farm?
A perfect example of this was watching a few minutes of that awful Jon Snow (?) C4 debate thing last night where any NO speaker was just hollered at until they had no option but to stop talking.
Towards the end one very well spoken, educated fella said that he would vote YES because he wanted a change, he wanted the people of Scotland to be voting on Scotland's future. Then he proposed that it shouldn't be beyond the wit of Holyrood to write an app that voters all across Scotland could use to vote on a whole raft of issues.
This all sounds very feasible, but oh my god it was just so incredibly naive and fairy tale. Does he really think that ANY politician is going to hand the reigns of power over to 'the people' like this? It would never happen, politicians don't go into politics to do what the people want, but to tell people what to do.
Maybe it's me, maybe I'm just too cynical (
), but this level of fantasy future politics was just a little bit scarey considering most people have to live in the real world.benjj said:
I think that's quite unreasonably aggressive towards someone who has just given a clear explanation of why they have voted a certain way. He didn't need to tell us at all, I found it an interesting read.
However, the risk you indicate of a huge English backlash is right. I can say with some certainty that in the event of a NO vote I'll be lobbying furiously to put the screws on everything that Cameron has promised to deliver if they stay in the union. As a country they simply don't deserve it after all this.
How on earth was it aggressive?However, the risk you indicate of a huge English backlash is right. I can say with some certainty that in the event of a NO vote I'll be lobbying furiously to put the screws on everything that Cameron has promised to deliver if they stay in the union. As a country they simply don't deserve it after all this.
Sadly to a lot of Yes voters the ramifications of a Yes vote are not apparent. Either that or they simply do not care and for them being selfish is a personal right, more than likely as they`ve made a hash of things in their time on this planet.
My girlfriends sister is voting Yes. The straggly haired, never been abroad at 50 and owns nothing to her name, hippy type.
My niece is voting Yes (blonde, stunned and influenced by facebook).
I have 2 work colleagues that are voting yes as they are Celtic supporters. No other reason than blind bigotry.
I have a friend that`s been on the rock and roll for the last 7 years with no want for work that`s voting Yes. Complete benefit junkie.
These type of people make up the citizenry that is Scotland.
At the end of today we`ll get what we deserve.
My girlfriends sister is voting Yes. The straggly haired, never been abroad at 50 and owns nothing to her name, hippy type.
My niece is voting Yes (blonde, stunned and influenced by facebook).
I have 2 work colleagues that are voting yes as they are Celtic supporters. No other reason than blind bigotry.
I have a friend that`s been on the rock and roll for the last 7 years with no want for work that`s voting Yes. Complete benefit junkie.
These type of people make up the citizenry that is Scotland.
At the end of today we`ll get what we deserve.
benjj said:
I think that's quite unreasonably aggressive towards someone who has just given a clear explanation of why they have voted a certain way. He didn't need to tell us at all, I found it an interesting read.
However, the risk you indicate of a huge English backlash is right. I can say with some certainty that in the event of a NO vote I'll be lobbying furiously to put the screws on everything that Cameron has promised to deliver if they stay in the union. As a country they simply don't deserve it after all this.
Amen, brother! However, the risk you indicate of a huge English backlash is right. I can say with some certainty that in the event of a NO vote I'll be lobbying furiously to put the screws on everything that Cameron has promised to deliver if they stay in the union. As a country they simply don't deserve it after all this.
Edinburger said:
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
You know what, I agree with all of that.But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
Should Scotland be independent? Yes if it wants to be.
Should Scotland go for the half baked plan offered up this time round? Not if its got any sense.
Piersman2 said:
Makes me laugh things like that, nothing like threatening a Scot to make him more likely to do the exact opposite out of pure pugnacity.
But what if the graffiti was done by a NO voter as a touch of reverse psychology?
Doesn't seem like the No campaign have got that much of an imagination....But what if the graffiti was done by a NO voter as a touch of reverse psychology?
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff