Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
Vipers said:
OpulentBob said:
Nice one. Great post. Don't necessarily agree with it all but it's not for me or anyone else to ratify your thinking. A non-patronising well done from me.
bigkeeko said:
Sadly to a lot of Yes voters the ramifications of a Yes vote are not apparent. Either that or they simply do not care and for them being selfish is a personal right, more than likely as they`ve made a hash of things in their time on this planet.
My girlfriends sister is voting Yes. The straggly haired, never been abroad at 50 and owns nothing to her name, hippy type.
My niece is voting Yes (blonde, stunned and influenced by facebook).
I have 2 work colleagues that are voting yes as they are Celtic supporters. No other reason than blind bigotry.
I have a friend that`s been on the rock and roll for the last 7 years with no want for work that`s voting Yes. Complete benefit junkie.
These type of people make up the citizenry that is Scotland.
At the end of today we`ll get what we deserve.
I try not to get “into” politics too much however it’s difficult not to be sucked in to this matter. From what I have observed on the TV, Radio etc this statement sadly appears to me very trueMy girlfriends sister is voting Yes. The straggly haired, never been abroad at 50 and owns nothing to her name, hippy type.
My niece is voting Yes (blonde, stunned and influenced by facebook).
I have 2 work colleagues that are voting yes as they are Celtic supporters. No other reason than blind bigotry.
I have a friend that`s been on the rock and roll for the last 7 years with no want for work that`s voting Yes. Complete benefit junkie.
These type of people make up the citizenry that is Scotland.
At the end of today we`ll get what we deserve.
Do the Yes voters who bang on about a new beginning with their own government in charge etc REALLY expect there “own” politicians to be any different to what they have already!
Watching the CH4 debate last night, sadly it appeared to me that the majority of the Yes voters were somewhat lacking in Intelligence, sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, just my observations.
Scott Hastings summed it up nicely I thought, we are much stronger together.
My missus who is also non-political was very angry, something along the lines of “when you f
k up your own country don’t come running to us for help” I sincerely hope this does not happen and common sense prevails!ukbabz said:
Am not sure how that twitter page isn't breaking a couple of rules on racial hatred / abusive communications..
LOL - it's like a comedy routine (a bad one).He complains about "fascist UKIP" - but then goes on to say that independence will be taken by force.
He says he is getting "death threats" off No supporters - because he said he'd rather "die a million times than be British" - and somebody replied "just the once will do".
He says the union flag represents racism and bloodlust - yet incites violence and used phrases like "filthy English scum".
https://twitter.com/toffee192
He does look a bit like Chubby Brown though.......
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 18th September 10:35
ukbabz said:
Am not sure how that twitter page isn't breaking a couple of rules on racial hatred / abusive communications..
He's an absolute imbecile. Talking about fascist & racist english, then going on about the english scum. He really is clueless, and hopefully not representative of most voters. But I do think he's representative of the "Yes" campaign.clonmult said:
ukbabz said:
Am not sure how that twitter page isn't breaking a couple of rules on racial hatred / abusive communications..
He's an absolute imbecile. Talking about fascist & racist english, then going on about the english scum. He really is clueless, and hopefully not representative of most voters. But I do think he's representative of the "Yes" campaign.
chris watton said:
clonmult said:
ukbabz said:
Am not sure how that twitter page isn't breaking a couple of rules on racial hatred / abusive communications..
He's an absolute imbecile. Talking about fascist & racist english, then going on about the english scum. He really is clueless, and hopefully not representative of most voters. But I do think he's representative of the "Yes" campaign.Edinburger said:
Hi Beefy
That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
Long term lurker on this thread and I've enjoyed your posts on the matter as they've made me think about things. I agree it's been a great discussion when people have decided to join in the debate and not just throw insults about. That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
I decided way back I'd be voting "no". The facts have never really added up, the SNP seem to want everything on their own terms and don't seem to be willing to acknowledge that this might not happen - heck...even now they're still think we'll share the UK pound, despite everything pointing the opposite direction.
I've had 3 "wobble" points - mainly based on irritation :
1) The misreporting of the Salmond vs. Nick Robinson stand off by the BBC - I thought that was a bit shameful and did stink of impartiality.
2) The late offer of more devolved powers by better together - changing the scope of the debate so late in the day and once some postal votes had been returned was a low blow.
3) And to be honest some of the more vitriolic "anti-scottish", generalised views that if you're Scottish you're automatically an English hating Yes voter.
Personally I think the root of the "problem" and the desire for something different is a dissatisfaction with Westminster and MPs in general. They've not covered themselves in glory over the last few years and seem to have party and personal self-interest at heart rather than the public good. But this is a problem for the whole of the UK and not just Scotland ( witness poor general election turnouts ).
I'm hoping for a No....but I'm hoping this whole saga has given Westminster enough of a scare so that there is general reform across the whole of the UK.
Jader1973 said:
I've just spoken to my Dad who is on his way to vote, and he told me that the bookies have started paying out for a No win.
Can anyone confirm that? (Not that I think he is fibbing).
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-betfair-pay-out-on-no-vote-1-3543402Can anyone confirm that? (Not that I think he is fibbing).
It's true.
towser said:
1) The misreporting of the Salmond vs. Nick Robinson stand off by the BBC - I thought that was a bit shameful and did stink of impartiality.
I'm not sure why that has gained so much attention. Salmond didn't answer Nick's question on why the Scottish voters should believe him over business leaders - so the report was entirely accurate.I think Salmonds childish accusation that Nick Robinson was heckling after Nick picked him up on failing to answer the question was more out of line.
Yet again - Salmond refused to answer a direct question - instead choosing to give yet another scripted answer to a question he was never asked - then shouted down anyone who tried to point out that he hadn't answered the question asked. Seems to have been the modus operandi of the entire Yes campaign.
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 18th September 10:59
whoami said:
chris watton said:
clonmult said:
ukbabz said:
Am not sure how that twitter page isn't breaking a couple of rules on racial hatred / abusive communications..
He's an absolute imbecile. Talking about fascist & racist english, then going on about the english scum. He really is clueless, and hopefully not representative of most voters. But I do think he's representative of the "Yes" campaign.towser said:
I'm hoping for a No....but I'm hoping this whole saga has given Westminster enough of a scare so that there is general reform across the whole of the UK.
My hope too. Inbetween this and UKIP, even the most myopic politician must realise that there is a massive feeling of unrest across the whole of the UK. The worst that can happen is a 'no' vote then everything fizzles out and we are back to where we were.Silverbullet767 said:
Jader1973 said:
I've just spoken to my Dad who is on his way to vote, and he told me that the bookies have started paying out for a No win.
Can anyone confirm that? (Not that I think he is fibbing).
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-betfair-pay-out-on-no-vote-1-3543402Can anyone confirm that? (Not that I think he is fibbing).
It's true.
towser said:
Personally I think the root of the "problem" and the desire for something different is a dissatisfaction with Westminster and MPs in general. They've not covered themselves in glory over the last few years.
That's a perennial complaint, but if you look at the performance of the UK economy over the last few years compared with the Eurozone - they've actually done rather well.If you want to find seriously pissed-off voters - take a trip to France.
towser said:
I'm hoping for a No....but I'm hoping this whole saga has given Westminster enough of a scare so that there is general reform across the whole of the UK.
Unfortunately I don't think it will. The rise in popularity in UKIP down south is only a reflection of the same underlying issues that have allowed SNP to prosper north of the border,The political elite in Westminster used to laugh at UKIP and still can't believe that anyone would ever take UKIP seriously. Which is an error of judgement on their part.
So I don't expect any general reform across the UK, at least not until an English version of Salmond stirs things up down here. Farage is good but hasn't yet really tapped into the patriotism of the English. If UKIP learn anything from SNP, it may be how to do this. And it won't be pretty.
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