Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
Bluebarge said:
towser said:
Personally I think the root of the "problem" and the desire for something different is a dissatisfaction with Westminster and MPs in general. They've not covered themselves in glory over the last few years.
That's a perennial complaint, but if you look at the performance of the UK economy over the last few years compared with the Eurozone - they've actually done rather well.If you want to find seriously pissed-off voters - take a trip to France.
towser said:
I'm hoping for a No....but I'm hoping this whole saga has given Westminster enough of a scare so that there is general reform across the whole of the UK.
I agree with that. I think that issues like the Midlothian question and the lack of an English parliament should be addressed. Uk politics has been too complacent and change is needed.One of the major things that the Scottish referendum debate has taught me, however, is that even many years after Tony Blair, spin is alive and well.
The Yes camp have achieved a massive amount essentially using spin. No details to speak of; just soundbites, rhetoric, optimism and positivity. But it is all spin. There is no detail.
Seven years have passed since the Tony Blair era, but the poisonous aspects of spin have been forgotten and once more it is possible to achieve great things on the back of tag lines and rhetoric. I was hoping people would have realised this, but many have not.
Thank you Edinburg for coming back and letting us have your decision. I am one of those who have barracked you and if I went a bit OTT on occasion I appologise - things have got a bit heated on this thread. I started off being very positive for the union, but now hope Scotland gets it's independence, not to be nasty to you, but I've seen a side of the Scots that has astounded me. I don't want to be in a union with a country where so many of its inhabitants seem to hate us. This was probably Salmond & Co's plan and I hope if things turn out very much less than the SNP have promised, they are held to account. Good luck to you Burg, you have generally managed to remain a gentlemen even when responding to insults - what PH should be about.
toppstuff said:
I agree with that. I think that issues like the Midlothian question and the lack of an English parliament should be addressed. Uk politics has been too complacent and change is needed.
One of the major things that the Scottish referendum debate has taught me, however, is that even many years after Tony Blair, spin is alive and well.
The Yes camp have achieved a massive amount essentially using spin. No details to speak of; just soundbites, rhetoric, optimism and positivity. But it is all spin. There is no detail.
Seven years have passed since the Tony Blair era, but the poisonous aspects of spin have been forgotten and once more it is possible to achieve great things on the back of tag lines and rhetoric. I was hoping people would have realised this, but many have not.
History is written by the victor. Its always been about spin.One of the major things that the Scottish referendum debate has taught me, however, is that even many years after Tony Blair, spin is alive and well.
The Yes camp have achieved a massive amount essentially using spin. No details to speak of; just soundbites, rhetoric, optimism and positivity. But it is all spin. There is no detail.
Seven years have passed since the Tony Blair era, but the poisonous aspects of spin have been forgotten and once more it is possible to achieve great things on the back of tag lines and rhetoric. I was hoping people would have realised this, but many have not.
andy_s said:
From someone who believes in independence and self-determination as a principal but couldn't get past the dishonest way it was presented and the shambolic planning afforded to it I also put my cross in the no box.
Having actually given this some real thought and put aside daft notions of history I'm fairly convinced that the better approach would be to adopt the German federal model for the constituent countries that form the UK. I'm fully supportive of the desire to greater representation and self-determination. Historical reasons for our current political structures don't make them worth keeping in my view.andy_s said:
Fair play to you Edinburger, a particularly challenging position to have taken throughout given the noers here could be as vociferous as the yessers outside - my hat is doffed.
Indeed - reading Edinburger's post genuinely gives me hope for sense over sensationalism.menousername said:
Bluebarge said:
towser said:
Personally I think the root of the "problem" and the desire for something different is a dissatisfaction with Westminster and MPs in general. They've not covered themselves in glory over the last few years.
That's a perennial complaint, but if you look at the performance of the UK economy over the last few years compared with the Eurozone - they've actually done rather well.If you want to find seriously pissed-off voters - take a trip to France.
Whatever the outcome, the big losers will be the Labour Party in England.
Yes vote - lose 40 odd MPs
No vote - I can see reform being centre stage in next years election. It will be difficult for labour to go against public mood which will be English MPs to vote on English matters. They will make themselves an irrelevance as a result, even if they win the election (unless by a landslide which is very unlikely)
So SNP have delivered Tory rule, or ability to block labour, to the rest of the UK, regardless of the outcome.
Lots will say hurrah.
But to those who don't, the whole SNP mantra of social justice etc would have been at the cost to the rest of the UK if you believe their rantings. I wonder how that sits with their conscience .. Didn't they see that coming?
Yes vote - lose 40 odd MPs
No vote - I can see reform being centre stage in next years election. It will be difficult for labour to go against public mood which will be English MPs to vote on English matters. They will make themselves an irrelevance as a result, even if they win the election (unless by a landslide which is very unlikely)
So SNP have delivered Tory rule, or ability to block labour, to the rest of the UK, regardless of the outcome.
Lots will say hurrah.
But to those who don't, the whole SNP mantra of social justice etc would have been at the cost to the rest of the UK if you believe their rantings. I wonder how that sits with their conscience .. Didn't they see that coming?
Jimboka said:
Whatever the outcome, the big losers will be the Labour Party in England.
Yes vote - lose 40 odd MPs
No vote - I can see reform being centre stage in next years election. It will be difficult for labour to go against public mood which will be English MPs to vote on English matters. They will make themselves an irrelevance as a result, even if they win the election (unless by a landslide which is very unlikely)
So SNP have delivered Tory rule, or ability to block labour, to the rest of the UK, regardless of the outcome.
Lots will say hurrah.
But to those who don't, the whole SNP mantra of social justice etc would have been at the cost to the rest of the UK if you believe their rantings. I wonder how that sits with their conscience .. Didn't they see that coming?
The way I see it is.Yes vote - lose 40 odd MPs
No vote - I can see reform being centre stage in next years election. It will be difficult for labour to go against public mood which will be English MPs to vote on English matters. They will make themselves an irrelevance as a result, even if they win the election (unless by a landslide which is very unlikely)
So SNP have delivered Tory rule, or ability to block labour, to the rest of the UK, regardless of the outcome.
Lots will say hurrah.
But to those who don't, the whole SNP mantra of social justice etc would have been at the cost to the rest of the UK if you believe their rantings. I wonder how that sits with their conscience .. Didn't they see that coming?
If NO we get to keep Dave who will do a deal with UKIP and make sure he has a majority at the next election.
If YES we get Boris and a tory majority at the next election.
win win
Just been down to vote, had to get past two local yes supporters handing out leaflets at the entrance to the polling station. I questioned inside if that was allowed, and was told it was, personally don't think anyone should be anywhere near the place unless they are voting.
I think life is going to be pretty grim up here for a while whatever the result.
I think life is going to be pretty grim up here for a while whatever the result.
Mark A S said:
Do the Yes voters who bang on about a new beginning with their own government in charge etc REALLY expect there “own” politicians to be any different to what they have already!
That is the problem of course. All Scotland can do is replace one set of politicians with another. The hope for a change is enticing though. We have our wonderful Farage down here who promises something different and then sucks up to Murdoch. He might well be up against Johnson who is Cameron without the gravitas - not something that many thought possible. On the other side we have Harman - god help us, she is worse than Ed, not something that any thought possible.
They are all politicians. Nothing will change.
The impact of the vile behaviour of the SNP spite mongers, is already being felt it seems
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-in...
Totally, totally predictable. <sigh>
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-in...
Totally, totally predictable. <sigh>
I enjoyed this from the Telegraph live stream
10.45 Michael Deacon is at the Craigmiller housing estate, one of the most deprived in Edinburgh.
He is one of the first of three marches today that will lead voters to the polling stations. They are being led by a hired piper, who is blowing flames out the end of his pipes. Children have saltires painted on their faces, and they carry placards reading "End Tory rule for Ever."
A man at the front of the march of around 100 announces through a microphone: "The working class people of scotland are starting the fightback against Tory austerity".
On the 14-storey tower block, every single window bar two carries a Yes sticker.
"Critics may find it intimidating. But they are very upbeat and celebratory," says Deacon.
I love how he is leading a march of 100 odd people that he claims are 'working class' in the middle of the work day!
10.45 Michael Deacon is at the Craigmiller housing estate, one of the most deprived in Edinburgh.
He is one of the first of three marches today that will lead voters to the polling stations. They are being led by a hired piper, who is blowing flames out the end of his pipes. Children have saltires painted on their faces, and they carry placards reading "End Tory rule for Ever."
A man at the front of the march of around 100 announces through a microphone: "The working class people of scotland are starting the fightback against Tory austerity".
On the 14-storey tower block, every single window bar two carries a Yes sticker.
"Critics may find it intimidating. But they are very upbeat and celebratory," says Deacon.
I love how he is leading a march of 100 odd people that he claims are 'working class' in the middle of the work day!
Alpacaman said:
Just been down to vote, had to get past two local yes supporters handing out leaflets at the entrance to the polling station. I questioned inside if that was allowed, and was told it was, personally don't think anyone should be anywhere near the place unless they are voting.
I think life is going to be pretty grim up here for a while whatever the result.
Could be classed as 'intimidating voters', especially given how aggressive Yes campaigners have been. I would hope it would have the opposite of the intended effect to be honest.I think life is going to be pretty grim up here for a while whatever the result.
Edinburger said:
Hi Beefy
That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
I had a lump in my throat when I read that Burger, and you know the strange thing? I'd probably have felt the same if you'd said you voted yes.
Excellent post, thanks.
towser said:
yeah - fair point....but several things jump to mind....I think Iraq / Afghanistan and MPs expenses have cast a long shadow and have lead to a degree of anti-Westminster / politician feeling.....
Ironically - both of those things precipitated under a Labour government that Scotland voted for, run by Scottish born/bred MPs..........Arguably Labour MPs were by far and away the worst offenders in the expenses scandal. In the list of MPs ordered to pay back money - the top 5 worst offenders Labour - and had a combined total payback that was more than all other MPs put together. And lets not forget how his Toninesses expenses mysteriously got shredded 'by accident' just before they were due to be scrutinised.
London424 said:
Children have saltires painted on their faces, and they carry placards reading "End Tory rule for Ever."
Whatever side of the fence you sit, indoctrinating kids rather than letting them form their own opinions is wrong. More so when the message is one of hatred for the 'other side'.Edited by Rovinghawk on Thursday 18th September 12:11
Edinburger said:
Hi Beefy
That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
Well I think that I for one owe you an apology, so here goes........That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
I'm sorry.
Oh and on a less serious note, you were a t
t at times thoughGassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff