Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
London424 said:
I enjoyed this from the Telegraph live stream
I love how he is leading a march of 100 odd people that he claims are 'working class' in the middle of the work day!
To be fair. If they care that much they may have taken the day off.... Given the school is probably shut as a polling station as well.I love how he is leading a march of 100 odd people that he claims are 'working class' in the middle of the work day!
not that I think that's true. But benefit of the doubt etc
Jimboka said:
Whatever the outcome, the big losers will be the Labour Party in England.
Yes vote - lose 40 odd MPs
No vote - I can see reform being centre stage in next years election. It will be difficult for labour to go against public mood which will be English MPs to vote on English matters. They will make themselves an irrelevance as a result, even if they win the election (unless by a landslide which is very unlikely)
So SNP have delivered Tory rule, or ability to block labour, to the rest of the UK, regardless of the outcome.
Lots will say hurrah.
But to those who don't, the whole SNP mantra of social justice etc would have been at the cost to the rest of the UK if you believe their rantings. I wonder how that sits with their conscience .. Didn't they see that coming?
I've seen this comment a lot and its made me think what the Labour party will do next. I'm not sure who I will vote for at the next election to be honest as I dont know who the candidates in my constituency are and dont vote on blind party loyalty but as far as the labour party are concerned, if there is a Yes vote and they lose 40 odd MPs, I hope they can use this as an opportunity to change the party and attempt to restore some core values. Yes vote - lose 40 odd MPs
No vote - I can see reform being centre stage in next years election. It will be difficult for labour to go against public mood which will be English MPs to vote on English matters. They will make themselves an irrelevance as a result, even if they win the election (unless by a landslide which is very unlikely)
So SNP have delivered Tory rule, or ability to block labour, to the rest of the UK, regardless of the outcome.
Lots will say hurrah.
But to those who don't, the whole SNP mantra of social justice etc would have been at the cost to the rest of the UK if you believe their rantings. I wonder how that sits with their conscience .. Didn't they see that coming?
They wont win in 2015 but could at least form a credible opposition and then engage with the voters prior to winning in 2019 when Chuka Umunna is leader of the party.
NoNeed said:
Jimboka said:
Whatever the outcome, the big losers will be the Labour Party in England.
Yes vote - lose 40 odd MPs
No vote - I can see reform being centre stage in next years election. It will be difficult for labour to go against public mood which will be English MPs to vote on English matters. They will make themselves an irrelevance as a result, even if they win the election (unless by a landslide which is very unlikely)
So SNP have delivered Tory rule, or ability to block labour, to the rest of the UK, regardless of the outcome.
Lots will say hurrah.
But to those who don't, the whole SNP mantra of social justice etc would have been at the cost to the rest of the UK if you believe their rantings. I wonder how that sits with their conscience .. Didn't they see that coming?
The way I see it is.Yes vote - lose 40 odd MPs
No vote - I can see reform being centre stage in next years election. It will be difficult for labour to go against public mood which will be English MPs to vote on English matters. They will make themselves an irrelevance as a result, even if they win the election (unless by a landslide which is very unlikely)
So SNP have delivered Tory rule, or ability to block labour, to the rest of the UK, regardless of the outcome.
Lots will say hurrah.
But to those who don't, the whole SNP mantra of social justice etc would have been at the cost to the rest of the UK if you believe their rantings. I wonder how that sits with their conscience .. Didn't they see that coming?
If NO we get to keep Dave who will do a deal with UKIP and make sure he has a majority at the next election.
If YES we get Boris and a tory majority at the next election.
win win
Edinburger said:
Hi Beefy
That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
EB, in my now infrequent visits on here we've seemed to have been on opposite sides of the argument, but your post above aligns with much of my own thinking.That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
I was not and am still not ideologically opposed to independence but that was not what was being offered here and maybe it just swung it for me at a much earlier stage.
Ironically it looks as though I will be spending a lot less time in Scotland now, either way, but them's the breaks. Thanks for the debate, good and bad, and let's hope whatever it is works out.
Funk said:
Alpacaman said:
Just been down to vote, had to get past two local yes supporters handing out leaflets at the entrance to the polling station. I questioned inside if that was allowed, and was told it was, personally don't think anyone should be anywhere near the place unless they are voting.
I think life is going to be pretty grim up here for a while whatever the result.
Could be classed as 'intimidating voters', especially given how aggressive Yes campaigners have been. I would hope it would have the opposite of the intended effect to be honest.I think life is going to be pretty grim up here for a while whatever the result.
However I did see a 'Yes' van with megaphones fitted while going through a larger town on my way to work
Cheese Mechanic said:
As an Englishman who has no vote, I've pondered how I would vote should we have been offered the opportunity to vote on ejecting Scotland from the Union.
After much rumination, I came to the conclusion that I would abstain, even though it would be in my interests to throw the Scots out, those interests being the damage a lack of Scottish seats would do to the Socialist Labour Party. The one thing aside armed conflict that has done the greatest harm to the UK.
Those intetrersts of course, are personal to me, and could be viewed in a selfish light. So why the abstention? I would abstain because of those decent Scots, who want no part of Salmonds hysterical shreeking spitefull circus. I have happy memories as a kid of holidays in Scotland, and more recently in the far north and Orkney. All I have come across were decent pleasant people. Why should I punish those people who have done me no slight for my own selfish ambitions? So there we are, an open and honest viewpoint from this Englishman.
As for the Salmond Scottish Nasty Party type adherents , they really ought to look in a mirror, they have caused more damage to Scotland than the English have ever done, they seem oblivious to the avalanche of resentment and ill will they have caused , because its that , they have done. This resentment and bad feeling will not go away overnight , it will endure and fester for a long while, whatever the result of todays election.
Basiclly, as an Englishman , all this has come as more than a little disapointing to me, disapointed that such hate filled
s as the SNP'ers exist , however, should I have been a Scot, my perspective would have been far more profound , basically that of being blisteringly angry that some of my fellow countrymen would paint my country in such a light, and above all, that their behaviour leads others to tar me with the brush as them.
Whatever the result today, the biggest losers in this ridiculous theatre , will be Scotland, and decent Scots who will suffer the repercussions through no fault of their own.
Well said. I am hoping for a YES vote today. Becase I hate Scotland? No, far from it, but rather because as As an Englishman who has kept a kean eye on this process I am appalled by two things. After much rumination, I came to the conclusion that I would abstain, even though it would be in my interests to throw the Scots out, those interests being the damage a lack of Scottish seats would do to the Socialist Labour Party. The one thing aside armed conflict that has done the greatest harm to the UK.
Those intetrersts of course, are personal to me, and could be viewed in a selfish light. So why the abstention? I would abstain because of those decent Scots, who want no part of Salmonds hysterical shreeking spitefull circus. I have happy memories as a kid of holidays in Scotland, and more recently in the far north and Orkney. All I have come across were decent pleasant people. Why should I punish those people who have done me no slight for my own selfish ambitions? So there we are, an open and honest viewpoint from this Englishman.
As for the Salmond Scottish Nasty Party type adherents , they really ought to look in a mirror, they have caused more damage to Scotland than the English have ever done, they seem oblivious to the avalanche of resentment and ill will they have caused , because its that , they have done. This resentment and bad feeling will not go away overnight , it will endure and fester for a long while, whatever the result of todays election.
Basiclly, as an Englishman , all this has come as more than a little disapointing to me, disapointed that such hate filled
s as the SNP'ers exist , however, should I have been a Scot, my perspective would have been far more profound , basically that of being blisteringly angry that some of my fellow countrymen would paint my country in such a light, and above all, that their behaviour leads others to tar me with the brush as them. Whatever the result today, the biggest losers in this ridiculous theatre , will be Scotland, and decent Scots who will suffer the repercussions through no fault of their own.
1. The knowledge that I now have that a significant chunk of Scottish society actually thinks that I am scum for being english, modestly well off and an occasional Tory voter. Sorry, but thats just not acceptable.
2. Even if I could live with the first point, I am even more cheesed off that so many Scots simply see no value in our 300 year Union, our UNITED kingdom!!!!! Indeed, many Scots on this thread have said they are only voting NO simply because they dont like the long term consequences of YES, or because they dont like Salmond... Hardly any have said they are voting NO because they value the union. Its a bit like your wife saying she will stay with you, not because she loves you, but because she's scared of losing her income and the bloke down the road she was going to run off with turns out to have haletosis, so on reflection she will stay. Well, would you want to stay with a woman like that? Especially as you know that as she gets older she'll be requiring more resources to keep her upright, plus there is always the chance she will run off with the first dustbinman with fresh breath to wink at her.
Nope, off you go Scotland, please. Good luck and all that.
Mr Trophy said:
Vile.
Wow - what a dick........is anyone really shocked that Andy Murray came out in support of independence at the 11th hour? His claim that the "No camp’s ‘negativity’ helped ‘sway his view’ just hours before referendum" is straight out of the Yes Campaign's Training Camp Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjMnPK3hCOU
Actually - come to think of it - didn't somebody call this months ago.........
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 18th September 12:29
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