Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
Well.. I don't think any of us were expecting Ed to cast his vote that way.
What does surprise me is that the points he raised have been known for over 2 years - and the YES stance hasn't changed.
The YES offering has been very clear from the outset.
They have used whenever possible words to minimalise the perceived changes of a YES vote.
The words : transition, common sense, gradual, shared etc are used whenever possible.
(Go back to Salmond, Sturgeon, Swinney speeches - you will here them used a lot. )
- Shared currency, shared defence, shared civil service, common energy, shared embassies, still have the BBC, still have the Queen, transition to be in the EU
- Everything will be the same - but better. It is just - No more Westminster.
How this could tally with Ed's vision of an independent Scotland - and cause Ed to "sit on the fence"? - I'm really not sure.
Ed's vision and the YES camp vision are polar opposites.
I am wondering if a notable number have similar thoughts to Ed. We will find out tomorrow morning.
What does surprise me is that the points he raised have been known for over 2 years - and the YES stance hasn't changed.
The YES offering has been very clear from the outset.
They have used whenever possible words to minimalise the perceived changes of a YES vote.
The words : transition, common sense, gradual, shared etc are used whenever possible.
(Go back to Salmond, Sturgeon, Swinney speeches - you will here them used a lot. )
- Shared currency, shared defence, shared civil service, common energy, shared embassies, still have the BBC, still have the Queen, transition to be in the EU
- Everything will be the same - but better. It is just - No more Westminster.
How this could tally with Ed's vision of an independent Scotland - and cause Ed to "sit on the fence"? - I'm really not sure.
Ed's vision and the YES camp vision are polar opposites.
I am wondering if a notable number have similar thoughts to Ed. We will find out tomorrow morning.
Moonhawk said:
Mr Trophy said:
Vile.
Wow - what a dick........is anyone really shocked that Andy Murray came out in support of independence at the 11th hour? His claim that the "No camp’s ‘negativity’ helped ‘sway his view’ just hours before referendum" is straight out of the Yes Campaign's Training Camp Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjMnPK3hCOU
Actually - come to think of it - didn't somebody call this months ago.........
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 18th September 12:29
I think nick robinson summed it up nicely - forgive my quote but when he said one of the main cruxes of the yes vote is being governed from 350 miles away by a tory government no-one in scotland voted for (which is a very good political point btw), 96% of the UK voters won't be voting in the referendum on a united kingdom.
if it is a yes, and I don't think it will be, CMD will be faced with a quasi european style federal state situation - something a lot of his party and followers would denounce immediately if they got the choice...
EU lite my any other means....
if it is a yes, and I don't think it will be, CMD will be faced with a quasi european style federal state situation - something a lot of his party and followers would denounce immediately if they got the choice...
EU lite my any other means....
Nom de ploom said:
.....one of the main cruxes of the yes vote is being governed from 350 miles away by a tory government no-one in scotland voted for (which is a very good political point btw)
It's nonsense rhetoric - a. We don't have a Tory government.
b. Even if we did - to say nobody in Scotland voted for them is a nonsense in itself. 1 in 5 voters in Scotland voted Tory in the 2010 general election.
Nom de ploom said:
I think nick robinson summed it up nicely - forgive my quote but when he said one of the main cruxes of the yes vote is being governed from 350 miles away by a tory government no-one in scotland voted for (which is a very good political point btw), 96% of the UK voters won't be voting in the referendum on a united kingdom.
if it is a yes, and I don't think it will be, CMD will be faced with a quasi european style federal state situation - something a lot of his party and followers would denounce immediately if they got the choice...
EU lite my any other means....
16.7% of Scottish residents who voted in 2010 voted for the conservatives. That's hardly no one. Anyway it's a coalition; not a Tory government and the Lib Dems got 19.7 % of the vote in Scotland.if it is a yes, and I don't think it will be, CMD will be faced with a quasi european style federal state situation - something a lot of his party and followers would denounce immediately if they got the choice...
EU lite my any other means....
plasticpig said:
16.7% of Scottish residents who voted in 2010 voted for the conservatives. That's hardly no one. Anyway it's a coalition; not a Tory government and the Lib Dems got 19.7 % of the vote in Scotland.
I'd argue that the current government is probably the most representative one we have had in ages.60% of the electorate voted for one or other of the two parties currently in power - that represents a higher proportion of the popular vote than pretty much any government in recent history.
Edinburger said:
Hi Beefy
That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
Interesting :-)That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
Ridgemont said:
Hats off to burger for post. The constant bemusement for me has been the cry for independence clashing with what is being proposed.. They appear to be mutually exclusive..
Hopefully some of the 6% undecided will likewise 'think very carefully' about the proposition on offer..
You put it more succinctly than I did. Hopefully some of the 6% undecided will likewise 'think very carefully' about the proposition on offer..
Voted this morning, usual Yes bandwagon hanging around right outside the town hall waving their flags. Have heard the odd bit of shouting as I live 40 yards away from it, but on the whole fairly quiet.
Had the van going around with the megaphone, not quite sure how catching 10 or so words as it goes past at 30mph would sway an undecided voter, but then this is the Yes way of thinking
Had the van going around with the megaphone, not quite sure how catching 10 or so words as it goes past at 30mph would sway an undecided voter, but then this is the Yes way of thinking
Ug_lee said:
not quite sure how catching 10 or so words as it goes past at 30mph would sway an undecided voter, but then this is the Yes way of thinking
Yes, Bluff, Bluster, Tory, Scaremongering, Oil, Government, We, Voted, ForThere you go - the only 10 words a yesser will ever need
Good for making your mind up regarding the future of your country - s#it if you are trying to play scrabble.
Ridgemont said:
Hats off to burger for post. The constant bemusement for me has been the cry for independence clashing with what is being proposed.. They appear to be mutually exclusive..
Hopefully some of the 6% undecided will likewise 'think very carefully' about the proposition on offer..
Been on the phone to a swithering mate this morning, and he came down on the no. I think he must represent a fair few Scots.Hopefully some of the 6% undecided will likewise 'think very carefully' about the proposition on offer..
On the polling station points, my local had a yes guy and an SNP councillor blethering on the pavement, and a grumpy looking pensioner with a no thanks badge standing like a bouncer at the door. Not sure wtf they were doing there tbh
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