Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
zygalski said:
Let's wait & see how much our taxes rise before gloating too much, shall we?
Don't worry too much. The ability to raise taxes even more will be given as part of the 'new powers' but won't be exercised as it isn't currently. It's all bluff and bluster by the SNP - they will have a power they don't have the balls to exercise. As for reducing taxes, no socialist party ever does that despite what they claim. It's all so much window dressing. Scotland will have more power to spend what it likes, where it likes but the SNP's current approach to the Scottish NHS is proof that they speak with forked tongue.Good luck with the new powers - you have politicians with, essentially, the same mindset that exists at Westminster. Go figure!
Garvin said:
zygalski said:
Let's wait & see how much our taxes rise before gloating too much, shall we?
Don't worry too much. The ability to raise taxes even more will be given as part of the 'new powers' but won't be exercised as it isn't currently. It's all bluff and bluster by the SNP - they will have a power they don't have the balls to exercise
WeirdNeville said:
How can Darling speak with so little passion?
It's like he doesn't give a f
k.
Worse than Salmonds Speech, why he was ever put at the head of the campaign I don't know. Someone with some drive should have pushed this to 70/30 IMO.
A very poor No campaign, I believe the vote carried in spite of their efforts rather than because of them.It's like he doesn't give a f
k.Worse than Salmonds Speech, why he was ever put at the head of the campaign I don't know. Someone with some drive should have pushed this to 70/30 IMO.
Impasse said:
McWigglebum4th said:
Edinburger said:
McWigglebum4th said:
Can I revert to calling the English dicks now?
Please don't - they'll think we hate them! 
Freeeeeedom....
Fail.
cardigankid said:
The reality here is that we have all had a remarkably close shave. 40 years ago a result of 45/55 against independence would have been inconceivable. A continuation of that trend is only going to lead to one place. Darling fought a poor campaign, The Yes campaign was far better. To lose by such a narrow margin when there are so many unknowns, such close relations with the rest of the UK and so many serious problems with independence is not a hammering. This is a remarkable success for the SNP. It should be a wake up call for Westminster.
Devolution of more powers to Scotland will only guarantee another referendum in 15-20 years. What we need now is leadership for the whole of the UK. We need to be together, British, not fragmented and certainly not sniping at each other.. Parliament has to engage with everyone - Scotland, Wales, NI, North West, North East, South West, everywhere. To fail to do that will guarantee both that there will be a next time, and that the next time the Nats will win.
The 40 year figure is the one that is important. The independence move was just a crowd of idiots and nutty skirt wearers until the oil came along. All of a sudden it was Scottish oil. Devolution of more powers to Scotland will only guarantee another referendum in 15-20 years. What we need now is leadership for the whole of the UK. We need to be together, British, not fragmented and certainly not sniping at each other.. Parliament has to engage with everyone - Scotland, Wales, NI, North West, North East, South West, everywhere. To fail to do that will guarantee both that there will be a next time, and that the next time the Nats will win.
10%+ isn't a narrow margin. If, as you say, it was a poor campaign by the No campaign, then one might suggest it is likely that next time it might be better.
Most of the arguments for independence used in Salmond's campaign will be negated is there is more devolution. Not that logic was a big feature of the Yes group.
Oil is transient. The revenue will drop over the next few years and this will be the nail in the coffin of any hope of a coherent argument for devolution.
The problem for the Scots, if there is any significant increase in the devolution of powers, is that if they mess it up there will be no one else to blame. We've have suggestions that Westminster is the source of all Scotland's problems and this was a major thrust of Yes. Once Holyrood makes the difficult decisions then Westminster will become less of a problem.
If SNP can't win during a recession, albeit one which the UK as a whole seems to be weathering better than most, then what chance when things are stronger financially.
andy_s said:
WeirdNeville said:
How can Darling speak with so little passion?
It's like he doesn't give a fk.
Worse than Salmonds Speech, why he was ever put at the head of the campaign I don't know. Someone with some drive should have pushed this to 70/30 IMO.
A very poor No campaign, I believe the vote carried in spite of their efforts rather than because of them.It's like he doesn't give a f
k.Worse than Salmonds Speech, why he was ever put at the head of the campaign I don't know. Someone with some drive should have pushed this to 70/30 IMO.
Unlike the bully boy, la la la la im not listening yes campaign, The Yes campaign that's financial, political & Moral arguments left a lot to be desired.
Never in doubt.
I see some of the conspiracy theories have begun: Dundee Count fire alarm (allowing votes to be tampered with), fraudulent votes in Glasgow, and the BBC coverage clearly showing a pile of (uncounted) Yes voting ballots sitting on No table at one of the counts. These claims are a bit desperate.
This result should kill off the demands for independence for a long time. Although the vote was relatively close, the 'perfect storm' under which this campaign was held is unlikely to exist again. Salmond won't be around much longer (and is clearly the most effective performer the Yes side have, oil production is slowing (and will be completely gone by 2040 to 2050), we should begin to enter an economic growth cycle which could last 10 plus years, making austerity cuts (beyond the next 3 or 4 years) less severe, and at some point during that cycle , there will be a Labour government, which historically has made Scottish voters less agitated.
The key factor will be the oil. In the absence of any other industry sector filling the gap that this declining industry will leave, the economic case for independence cannot be made.
Anyway, job done and back to work.
I see some of the conspiracy theories have begun: Dundee Count fire alarm (allowing votes to be tampered with), fraudulent votes in Glasgow, and the BBC coverage clearly showing a pile of (uncounted) Yes voting ballots sitting on No table at one of the counts. These claims are a bit desperate.
This result should kill off the demands for independence for a long time. Although the vote was relatively close, the 'perfect storm' under which this campaign was held is unlikely to exist again. Salmond won't be around much longer (and is clearly the most effective performer the Yes side have, oil production is slowing (and will be completely gone by 2040 to 2050), we should begin to enter an economic growth cycle which could last 10 plus years, making austerity cuts (beyond the next 3 or 4 years) less severe, and at some point during that cycle , there will be a Labour government, which historically has made Scottish voters less agitated.
The key factor will be the oil. In the absence of any other industry sector filling the gap that this declining industry will leave, the economic case for independence cannot be made.
Anyway, job done and back to work.
The right result for Scotland. I've been following both camps quite closely, and don't think the militant voice of the yes did their campaign any favours.
Based on reading months of posts on the respective group pages, I'm sure the Better Together supporters will generally be more gracious winners than the Yes would've been. The yes page is full of pish saying no voters should be ashamed and never sign the national anthem again. I havent seen any gloating amongst any of my 'no' friends.....just a few "Good Morning Britain" type relieved statuses on Facebook!
Based on reading months of posts on the respective group pages, I'm sure the Better Together supporters will generally be more gracious winners than the Yes would've been. The yes page is full of pish saying no voters should be ashamed and never sign the national anthem again. I havent seen any gloating amongst any of my 'no' friends.....just a few "Good Morning Britain" type relieved statuses on Facebook!
Well, its good that the voices of reason have won over Salmond's fantasies. Other than that though, little to celebrate.
The simple fact remains, that Salmond and his nasty party, have successfully portrayed Scots as being knuckledragging , sponging English haters, and by God, some are. However, most are not, but it is they who will suffer from the imagery that has come out of Scotland in the past week or two. Such ill will tends to be remembered, perhaps for too long, but it won't go away overnight.
We are already seeing reports of holidays being cancelled in Scotland by those south of the border, some in lieu of the vote result, but the majority it seems because of the ill will displayed to the English from north of the border . Difficult to know how much Scottish tourism is going to suffer, we shall see, but its evident already, that it will.
As for big business, especially those HQ'd in Scotland. This will have been of much concern to them, contingency plans will have been drawn up, plans to relocate south, as many have publicly admitted. They will remain worried of all this circus occuring again, it will come as no surprise, that in the fullness of time , those big companies, will slowly, but surely, relocate their HQ's into England.
Having said that so far, the real st will not be hitting the fan in Scotland, it will be doing so in the rest of the UK. Devo max? Not going to happen, any party down here who tries to implement such, unless I have read things very wrong , will be toast. The English voter, will not have it , such blatant preferential treatment via Scots hands in everyone else's pockets will not be tolerated. Mr Salmond has been far too successfull in portraying the Scots as English hating spongers, you see.
Very sad is it not. That such a small number of spite ridden people like Salmond and his nasty party, can do so much harm to Scotland and in the course of doing so, royally pissing off millions of others, because thats what they have done, thats what the end result of this hysterical circus is. Sad.
The simple fact remains, that Salmond and his nasty party, have successfully portrayed Scots as being knuckledragging , sponging English haters, and by God, some are. However, most are not, but it is they who will suffer from the imagery that has come out of Scotland in the past week or two. Such ill will tends to be remembered, perhaps for too long, but it won't go away overnight.
We are already seeing reports of holidays being cancelled in Scotland by those south of the border, some in lieu of the vote result, but the majority it seems because of the ill will displayed to the English from north of the border . Difficult to know how much Scottish tourism is going to suffer, we shall see, but its evident already, that it will.
As for big business, especially those HQ'd in Scotland. This will have been of much concern to them, contingency plans will have been drawn up, plans to relocate south, as many have publicly admitted. They will remain worried of all this circus occuring again, it will come as no surprise, that in the fullness of time , those big companies, will slowly, but surely, relocate their HQ's into England.
Having said that so far, the real s
t will not be hitting the fan in Scotland, it will be doing so in the rest of the UK. Devo max? Not going to happen, any party down here who tries to implement such, unless I have read things very wrong , will be toast. The English voter, will not have it , such blatant preferential treatment via Scots hands in everyone else's pockets will not be tolerated. Mr Salmond has been far too successfull in portraying the Scots as English hating spongers, you see. Very sad is it not. That such a small number of spite ridden people like Salmond and his nasty party, can do so much harm to Scotland and in the course of doing so, royally pissing off millions of others, because thats what they have done, thats what the end result of this hysterical circus is. Sad.
I for one am glad we stayed together. Having been involved in organising a Burns night over here and speaking to the piper band, they explained where ever they go the Scottish traditions are loved by the English and world alike. Without Scotland we would have lost a great deal. I just hope that this bunch of self interested muppets in power not really representing the majority of the UK give Scotland what they need.
What the average Scot wants is no different to the average Brit. Except our gov didn't win with a 54% majority.
Scotland we love you! We are fighting against the same people you are. Stick with us and help us at the next election. You have already taught us a lot. Hopefully the younger English generation will be more engaged when asked what they want to see.
What the average Scot wants is no different to the average Brit. Except our gov didn't win with a 54% majority.
Scotland we love you! We are fighting against the same people you are. Stick with us and help us at the next election. You have already taught us a lot. Hopefully the younger English generation will be more engaged when asked what they want to see.
Edited by stuart-b on Friday 19th September 07:27
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff