Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6

[Edinburger]

McWigglebum4th said:

Edinburger said:

I really hope he doesn't resign.

Even though I don't agree with him and the SNP say/do, he is one of the finest politicians of his generation and is easily the best First Mininster we've ever had in Scotland.

Have you been drinking?

As someone from the right wing i don't think he could hold a candle to Donald Dewar

We've been over this various times early in this thread. There's plenty evidence of him consistently beating every other Scottish and virtually all Britiush politicians in an analaysis of delivery of promises, change, popularity, etc.

[ralphrj]

Olivera said:

I concurred with the final 'No' vote, but I did find the BBC's regular use of this graphic very baffling. The referendum was not first past the post constituency based, so colouring in the constituency area with red/green simply did not make any sense.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that spotted that.

Sky had something similar but then adjusted it to show the size of the constituency. However, this was still wrong as it made it look as if 100% Glasgow voted 'Yes' and 100% of all the other areas voted 'No'.

[Esseesse]

Edinburger said:

Dog Star said:

The 16 and 17 year old thing was very cynical; I'd wager that about 90% of them voted "Yes".

Does anyone know what percentage of the electorate they represented?

Don't have the source to hanbd but I read 70-80% of 16 & 17 year olds had planned to vote No.

It's absolutely correct that they got the vote in such a monumentous referendum.

The fact that the vote was so monumentous is a good reason why children should not have had a say.

[Edinburger]

Esseesse said:

Edinburger said:

ralphrj said:

Salmond press conf pushed back again to 4pm.

Rumour is he will resign.

I really hope he doesn't resign.

Even though I don't agree with him and the SNP say/do, he is one of the finest politicians of his generation and is easily the best First Mininster we've ever had in Scotland.

A fine politician does not have to rely solely on rhetoric. He's just one of the quickest and aggressive first ministers you've ever had.

And most popular.

[Edinburger]

Esseesse said:

Edinburger said:

Dog Star said:

The 16 and 17 year old thing was very cynical; I'd wager that about 90% of them voted "Yes".

Does anyone know what percentage of the electorate they represented?

Don't have the source to hanbd but I read 70-80% of 16 & 17 year olds had planned to vote No.

It's absolutely correct that they got the vote in such a monumentous referendum.

The fact that the vote was so monumentous is a good reason why children should not have had a say.

Think you'll find that 16 and 17 year olds are deemed to be responsible adults according to Scots' law.

[Leithen]

Esseesse said:

The 16 and 17 year old thing... I was always wondering how that would affect the legality of the result. I.e. are there not rules about who can take part in elections (adults maybe)? And who has to consent to accept the views of 16/17 year olds? Who decided that it was acceptable to take the will of those living in Scotland, rather than those who are technically Scottish?

As for the legality of the referendum, the agreement between UK and Scottish governments outlines the legal basis for the subsequent Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013.

[mcbook]

Olivera said:

lamboman100 said:

GetCarter said:

A beautiful picture.

This makes me laugh. One of the reasons that Westminster is so broken. Imagine that map represented general election results - THE PINK PARTY HAVE A MASSIVE MAJORITY AND CANNOT BE CHALLENGED!

But actually, the vote was pretty close. Glad there's a parliament where everyone's vote actually counts.

[Mrr T]

mcbook said:

La Liga said:

t would have made no difference who were in power during the sub-prime crisis. Anyone who says so is usually an opportunist i.e. wasn't in power at the time.

Sorry, I was referring to the rampant increase in debt (during prosperous times) which made the sub-prime triggered recession so difficult to recover from. You're right that sub-prime would have screwed anyone but we were in a position, because of Gordy, where we could not adequately respond.

There was no sub prime crisis in the UK. That was in the US.

Gordon was directly responsible for removing any effect of house prices from the key inflation measure so interest rates where kept to low for to long, he deliberately allowed expenditure to run out of control during a boom when we should have been reducing debt, he even managed to sell most of our gold at the lowest possible price, he was closing involved in the creation of the Scottish parliament to solve the independence debate, but made sure Scottish MP's could vote on English issues.

Even in the Scottish independence debate he promised Scotland money from England and more powers with no responsibility.

He should be tried for treason.

[Leithen]

Sadly it would appear that certain journalists are being excluded from Salmond's press conference.

[Esseesse]

Leithen said:

Esseesse said:

The 16 and 17 year old thing... I was always wondering how that would affect the legality of the result. I.e. are there not rules about who can take part in elections (adults maybe)? And who has to consent to accept the views of 16/17 year olds? Who decided that it was acceptable to take the will of those living in Scotland, rather than those who are technically Scottish?

As for the legality of the referendum, the agreement between UK and Scottish governments outlines the legal basis for the subsequent Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013.

Thanks for that.

[DJRC]

ash73 said:

omg! I had no idea it would be so complicated that sounds really difficult

You really don't want to know what a validated secure and classified transaction data comma system takes. Just take it from some poor bd who has to do it for a job that it's a ball ache. And no not technically it's everything else.

[mcbook]

Mrr T said:

There was no sub prime crisis in the UK. That was in the US.

Caused a global shock and was certainly the trigger.

[Esseesse]

Edinburger said:

Esseesse said:

Edinburger said:

Dog Star said:

The 16 and 17 year old thing was very cynical; I'd wager that about 90% of them voted "Yes".

Does anyone know what percentage of the electorate they represented?

Don't have the source to hanbd but I read 70-80% of 16 & 17 year olds had planned to vote No.

It's absolutely correct that they got the vote in such a monumentous referendum.

The fact that the vote was so monumentous is a good reason why children should not have had a say.

Think you'll find that 16 and 17 year olds are deemed to be responsible adults according to Scots' law.

Can they drive a car and drink in the pub?

[toppstuff]

Edinburger said:

ralphrj said:

Salmond press conf pushed back again to 4pm.

Rumour is he will resign.

I really hope he doesn't resign.

Even though I don't agree with him and the SNP say/do, he is one of the finest politicians of his generation and is easily the best First Mininster we've ever had in Scotland.

I completely disagree.

I really don't have a problem with an independent Scotland. But if that was the objective, then Salmond played it all wrong.

It seems to me that Salmond was held to hostage by the fact that the SNP only won power marginally and could well lose the election in 2016. This dictated his strategy for the Scottish referendum.

Salmond could have followed a more detail orientated, practical approach to independence. He could have even proposed a two stage voting system - where an initial Yes vote could then be followed by a further vote based on the terms that were put on the table. But he didn't do that. He wanted the prize now and was worried that after 2016 he won't be around to take it any further.

If the Scottish referendum was based on proper, researched facts from the Scottish government rather than hyperbole and rhetoric, he probably would have won.

If the Scottish Government had done some financial modelling about the costs of independence, he probably would have won.

If the Scottish Government had conceded that, in the short term, independence could cause some sacrifice and been more honest with the Scottish people, he probably would have won.

It has been 7 years since Tony Blair was PM. He was the master of spin and rhetoric. Salmond must have known that just using spin and rhetoric would only work with some people, but not with enough of the people. If he didn't know it then, he sure knows it right now.

[Rovinghawk]

Mrr T said:

Gordon ..... even managed to sell most of our gold at the lowest possible price.

In fact, he actively lowered the price before selling.

(Unless you think that a publicised statement "I will release 400 tonnes in to the world market" would drive the price up)

[Cheese Mechanic]

La Liga said:

t would have made no difference who were in power during the sub-prime crisis. Anyone who says so is usually an opportunist i.e. wasn't in power at the time.

Thats nonsense. Our economy was trashed by a credit boom fueled by a constant cheap supply of money via the central bank (BOE) Brown borrowed on the huge tax revenues from that boom, a boom that could only have one result, the one we got.

Clinton drove a similar scenario, by enacting CRFA, put on the statute but not enacted by Carter back in 1976, this piece of socialist lunacy lent money on the basis of where the borrower lived, not the ability to pay it back. This was emforced by the 2 state owned clearing houses who would only give money supply to lenders on the basis that they had to do a % of CRFA loans to be able to gain funding for other business.

Fact is, the monetery policies of the Governments in the UK and USA directly caused our economic disasters.

Australia (as example) did not go on spending sprees on the back of economic growth, so when the crap hit the fan, they had the clout to ride the storm, unlike the UK and USA. Other countries had huge problems too, caused by their similar policies to UK/USA, but it was Brown and Clinton who directly caused the major damage.

Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Friday 19th September 16:09

[marshalla]

Esseesse said:

Can they drive a car and drink in the pub?

They can marry, get jobs, pay taxes and join the military. 17-year olds anywhere in the UK can drive.

[Moonhawk]

ralphrj said:

Olivera said:

I concurred with the final 'No' vote, but I did find the BBC's regular use of this graphic very baffling. The referendum was not first past the post constituency based, so colouring in the constituency area with red/green simply did not make any sense.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that spotted that.

Sky had something similar but then adjusted it to show the size of the constituency. However, this was still wrong as it made it look as if 100% Glasgow voted 'Yes' and 100% of all the other areas voted 'No'.

It's probably just easy. Yes it may not be entirely appropriate given the setup of the vote - but it did give a sense of which areas the votes were coming in from - and which way they were leaning (in general terms).

They use the same format for general elections, people are used to it, they already have the graphics/software packages to generate it - and at the end of the day - it needs to be easy on the eye and relatively informative for those bleary eyed individuals still watching at 4am.

[NomduJour]

Salmond gone.

[KTF]

News conference live here: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29230272

He is standing down as first minister.