Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
NomduJour said:
2013BRM said:
You really need to look at the bigger picture, politics is changing
Indeed - Scotland will likely get more devolved powers but I suspect the referendum will ultimately be financially counter-productive for them if they want things to be "fairer"."So there will be the gloaters, waving their Union Jacks like some kind of colourful nose thumbing towards the vanquished. But it seems to me that there is much to understand about what has happened here in the UK. The Scots have said we want political change. 1.6 million were prepared to break up the Union in order to achieve that. The no voters were not prepared to take their desire for political change that far, but don't tell me that they didn't want change at all. The fact is the NOers were given no room to discuss what change they did want only what they didn't want.
Now, the desire for change isn't over and don't try to tell me that this powerful desire that took millions to the streets of Scotland is constrained by who had a Scottish accent or who wears tartan. It wasn't just ungrateful English haters desperate to get back to the days of William Wallace. I know this for a fact, that across this cluster of wee countries that we call Britain there is a huge swell of discontentment and unhappiness about the way we are governed. Of course the people to blame want us to believe that it is anybody other than themselves:
Blame the damn Scots for daring to spent their national income in ways that make sense to them and still not be happy with their lot.
Blame the unemployed, the sick and disabled, the elderly, all for being a drain on the system in their own ways.
Blame people that have one too many bedrooms.
What about blaming Muslims for wearing strange headgear or whatever their perceived discretion of the week is.
Lets blame immigrants for stealing what few jobs there are left.
And the list goes on endlessly changing focus so as to keep catching us unaware, to stop us thinking about what is really going on. Just don't look at the way we are running the country or where we are spending all the money, don,t look at how we have dis empowered the average worker by taking away his right to be protected by a trade union. Don,t look at how we are selling off the countries assets like The Royal Mail and letting our mates make large overnight fortunes. Don,t notice that industry in the UK is suffering from a serious decline. Don,t notice that there are huge areas of the UK where there are no jobs. Don,t notice that we allow giant corporations to avoid paying income tax. Don,t look at the fact we pay obscene financial bonuses to bankers. Don,t look at our expenses scandals, don't look at our illegal wars, ignore the fact that UK is a puppet of the US administration, lets ignore our pisspoor performance at running our country and our disastrous foreign policies in the middle east and eastern Europe.
Yes We know this s
t is going on and it seems to me that the opportunity that we have right now is to unite with the Scots, to add to the momentum of not just 1.6 million but all the other disaffected Scots as well and to start a nationwide UK movement for change. A national movement for complete political reform.Of course maybe you are in the 'I'm alright Jack keep your hands of my stack' brigade. If you are one of them then keep waving your union Jacks safe in your delusion that Great Britain is still jolly great apart from the noisy disaffected Jocks getting above their station.
But if you have had enough of the political dishonestly and the fact the The City of London is draining us of all our wealth for doing absolutely nothing that brings any value to the country whatsoever. If you have had enough of being politically miss managed by ex public school boys who wouldn't know a days graft if it bit them on the arse and who don't give a toss for the average working person then don't blame the Scots for trying to take the opportunity for reform, why not instead join them in making a big fat noise and generating a tide of opinion that could reverse our decline and downfall and recreate a system that allows people into power that actually understand how it is to live in the real world."
London424 said:
Welshbeef said:
andy_s said:
^ he replied some time ago.
I must have missed it - what did he vote?k me are you blind. You've asked him twice and he's replied to you twice. At least have the common courtesy of reading through the responses before chucking something up in all caps like a two year old.2013BRM said:
I meant this has made everyone look a little more closely at how the UK is run, it's not just Scotland that is dissatisfied with the Eton boys club draining the country. To quote a very good and old friend
"So there will be the gloaters, waving their Union Jacks like some kind of colourful nose thumbing towards the vanquished. But it seems to me that there is much to understand about what has happened here in the UK. The Scots have said we want political change. 1.6 million were prepared to break up the Union in order to achieve that. The no voters were not prepared to take their desire for political change that far, but don't tell me that they didn't want change at all. The fact is the NOers were given no room to discuss what change they did want only what they didn't want.
Now, the desire for change isn't over and don't try to tell me that this powerful desire that took millions to the streets of Scotland is constrained by who had a Scottish accent or who wears tartan. It wasn't just ungrateful English haters desperate to get back to the days of William Wallace. I know this for a fact, that across this cluster of wee countries that we call Britain there is a huge swell of discontentment and unhappiness about the way we are governed. Of course the people to blame want us to believe that it is anybody other than themselves:
Blame the damn Scots for daring to spent their national income in ways that make sense to them and still not be happy with their lot.
Blame the unemployed, the sick and disabled, the elderly, all for being a drain on the system in their own ways.
Blame people that have one too many bedrooms.
What about blaming Muslims for wearing strange headgear or whatever their perceived discretion of the week is.
Lets blame immigrants for stealing what few jobs there are left.
And the list goes on endlessly changing focus so as to keep catching us unaware, to stop us thinking about what is really going on. Just don't look at the way we are running the country or where we are spending all the money, don,t look at how we have dis empowered the average worker by taking away his right to be protected by a trade union. Don,t look at how we are selling off the countries assets like The Royal Mail and letting our mates make large overnight fortunes. Don,t notice that industry in the UK is suffering from a serious decline. Don,t notice that there are huge areas of the UK where there are no jobs. Don,t notice that we allow giant corporations to avoid paying income tax. Don,t look at the fact we pay obscene financial bonuses to bankers. Don,t look at our expenses scandals, don't look at our illegal wars, ignore the fact that UK is a puppet of the US administration, lets ignore our pisspoor performance at running our country and our disastrous foreign policies in the middle east and eastern Europe.
Yes We know this st is going on and it seems to me that the opportunity that we have right now is to unite with the Scots, to add to the momentum of not just 1.6 million but all the other disaffected Scots as well and to start a nationwide UK movement for change. A national movement for complete political reform.
Of course maybe you are in the 'I'm alright Jack keep your hands of my stack' brigade. If you are one of them then keep waving your union Jacks safe in your delusion that Great Britain is still jolly great apart from the noisy disaffected Jocks getting above their station.
But if you have had enough of the political dishonestly and the fact the The City of London is draining us of all our wealth for doing absolutely nothing that brings any value to the country whatsoever. If you have had enough of being politically miss managed by ex public school boys who wouldn't know a days graft if it bit them on the arse and who don't give a toss for the average working person then don't blame the Scots for trying to take the opportunity for reform, why not instead join them in making a big fat noise and generating a tide of opinion that could reverse our decline and downfall and recreate a system that allows people into power that actually understand how it is to live in the real world."
So what you're saying is we need to vote UKIP? As they want to end the political elite and change Britain in the way you say. After all the SNP wanted a smaller version of Westminster and that is probably what cost them in the end."So there will be the gloaters, waving their Union Jacks like some kind of colourful nose thumbing towards the vanquished. But it seems to me that there is much to understand about what has happened here in the UK. The Scots have said we want political change. 1.6 million were prepared to break up the Union in order to achieve that. The no voters were not prepared to take their desire for political change that far, but don't tell me that they didn't want change at all. The fact is the NOers were given no room to discuss what change they did want only what they didn't want.
Now, the desire for change isn't over and don't try to tell me that this powerful desire that took millions to the streets of Scotland is constrained by who had a Scottish accent or who wears tartan. It wasn't just ungrateful English haters desperate to get back to the days of William Wallace. I know this for a fact, that across this cluster of wee countries that we call Britain there is a huge swell of discontentment and unhappiness about the way we are governed. Of course the people to blame want us to believe that it is anybody other than themselves:
Blame the damn Scots for daring to spent their national income in ways that make sense to them and still not be happy with their lot.
Blame the unemployed, the sick and disabled, the elderly, all for being a drain on the system in their own ways.
Blame people that have one too many bedrooms.
What about blaming Muslims for wearing strange headgear or whatever their perceived discretion of the week is.
Lets blame immigrants for stealing what few jobs there are left.
And the list goes on endlessly changing focus so as to keep catching us unaware, to stop us thinking about what is really going on. Just don't look at the way we are running the country or where we are spending all the money, don,t look at how we have dis empowered the average worker by taking away his right to be protected by a trade union. Don,t look at how we are selling off the countries assets like The Royal Mail and letting our mates make large overnight fortunes. Don,t notice that industry in the UK is suffering from a serious decline. Don,t notice that there are huge areas of the UK where there are no jobs. Don,t notice that we allow giant corporations to avoid paying income tax. Don,t look at the fact we pay obscene financial bonuses to bankers. Don,t look at our expenses scandals, don't look at our illegal wars, ignore the fact that UK is a puppet of the US administration, lets ignore our pisspoor performance at running our country and our disastrous foreign policies in the middle east and eastern Europe.
Yes We know this s
t is going on and it seems to me that the opportunity that we have right now is to unite with the Scots, to add to the momentum of not just 1.6 million but all the other disaffected Scots as well and to start a nationwide UK movement for change. A national movement for complete political reform.Of course maybe you are in the 'I'm alright Jack keep your hands of my stack' brigade. If you are one of them then keep waving your union Jacks safe in your delusion that Great Britain is still jolly great apart from the noisy disaffected Jocks getting above their station.
But if you have had enough of the political dishonestly and the fact the The City of London is draining us of all our wealth for doing absolutely nothing that brings any value to the country whatsoever. If you have had enough of being politically miss managed by ex public school boys who wouldn't know a days graft if it bit them on the arse and who don't give a toss for the average working person then don't blame the Scots for trying to take the opportunity for reform, why not instead join them in making a big fat noise and generating a tide of opinion that could reverse our decline and downfall and recreate a system that allows people into power that actually understand how it is to live in the real world."
Welshbeef said:
London424 said:
Welshbeef said:
andy_s said:
^ he replied some time ago.
I must have missed it - what did he vote?k me are you blind. You've asked him twice and he's replied to you twice. At least have the common courtesy of reading through the responses before chucking something up in all caps like a two year old.To Welshbeef.
Here is Edinburger's reply - ( actually to you )
It has been quoted at least 6 times in this thread.
But... you should read the thread. You will find it more engaging.
That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
Here is Edinburger's reply - ( actually to you )
It has been quoted at least 6 times in this thread.
But... you should read the thread. You will find it more engaging.
Edinburger said:
Welshbeef said:
So given Burger never got the answers he wanted to hear from both sides and was a fence sitter - what has he voted ? Surely the default is no especially if the Yes have not given you the answers you want to hear.
Or maybe he will not come back?
Hi BeefyOr maybe he will not come back?
That’s a fair question given that I’ve been undecided since volume 1.
I realise that some of you don’t believe I was undecided. Well, that was the truth. I’ve wavered between Yes and No several times as the debate progressed. This is an incredibly important vote and I’ve always seen it as a vote for my kids’ future, knowing that independence means unprecedented uncertainty, unknown changes and lots of different opportunities.
And a number of weeks ago I made my decision. I decided that I would absolutely love Scotland to be independent. We could certainly be a successful small country. My head and my heart have been at loggerheads over this. The Yes campaign has been very vocal and plenty respectable people have made good arguments on how we can build something better and leave that for future generations to build and improve on. As a father and as businessman that’s a compelling thought. The BT/No campaign has been mediocre at best.
But, I decided to vote No. And here’s why.
I could be and was persuaded that creating a new Scottish nation is absolutely the right thing to do. If it were to be a new nation. Built from a blank sheet of paper. Let’s learn from the world ‘as is’ and design and create a new nation ‘to be’. Let’s be on minded and pragmatic on our thoughts and designs.
But that wasn’t on the table. What was on the table was a version of the existing UK. Sharing currency and sharing different civil services and sharing the monarch isn‘t independence. Why replicate an existing country and society?
I realise a lot of that is wishful thinking and I realise that right now is quite possibly the wrong time to be doing this. I read an article which argues that was Yes were proposing was ‘Much The Same Apart’ which, for me, was bang on.
So - with a heavy heart - I’ll be voting No. Because I think it’s absolutely the right thing to do.
And as for this forum, I’ve enjoyed the crack and the banter over the years. There are some good debaters and there are some clowns. I was often offering alternative views and often that was to help my decision making and my learning processes throughout this debate. I followed a few independence threads on other websites too but this one was the more entertaining! I know I frustrated some of you by often being offline but that’s just my life and job situation. Oh, and the issue where I had evidence on the pension work – I did. Still do have it actually. There was collaborative work done across the financial services industry along with different civil servants on private, occupational and state pension issues which may arise but I can’t say any more than it did happen. That’s sometimes the nature of my work.
Looking forward? I honestly do not see the divided country that’s been suggested here. Over the next few weeks I expect the people of Scotland to put that behind us and work together, and over the next few and months and years we’ll hopefully create a better country for current and for future generations.,
I could be wrong. I might be making a mistake by voting No. But that’s my view. We’re living in interesting times, so let’s see what happens.
Edited by Troubleatmill on Saturday 20th September 10:25
NoNeed said:
So what you're saying is we need to vote UKIP? As they want to end the political elite and change Britain in the way you say. After all the SNP wanted a smaller version of Westminster and that is probably what cost them in the end.
yup, I think politics needs a shake up, it's not just the Jocks that are hacked off with the political elite draining the country, they just put the first boot in2013BRM said:
do some digging, it covers everything from expenses to overseas donations
You mean this kind of thing?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10978937/Al...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-in...
Sorry if this article has already been posted.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-in....
It's very interesting to see the breakdown of votes, area by area. The vote is closer to 60/40 in many areas, swayed towards the middle by the strength in the yes vote in a few key populous areas. These key areas though are more likely to be populated by 'dyed in the wool' types who would always vote along partisan lines anyway, regardless of the strength and validity of the campaign.
Then there are the border areas, stting themselves as to what a real border would mean to them (as were the English in Carlisle and Berwick). And what about the Orkneys? Dependent upon English tourism? Fully aware of the fragility of their locality and less willing to take a risk? More faith in Westminster than Edinburgh (perhaps they are far enough removed from Glasgow and Edinburgh to share little affinity with 'that' Scotland).
Then the realisation that the vote of those aged 16 and 17 was split 71/29 in favour of a yes vote. Are the youth the most disenfranchised by the union or was this a cynical ploy to exploit the naivety and naturally rebellious nature of that age group?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-in....
It's very interesting to see the breakdown of votes, area by area. The vote is closer to 60/40 in many areas, swayed towards the middle by the strength in the yes vote in a few key populous areas. These key areas though are more likely to be populated by 'dyed in the wool' types who would always vote along partisan lines anyway, regardless of the strength and validity of the campaign.
Then there are the border areas, s
tting themselves as to what a real border would mean to them (as were the English in Carlisle and Berwick). And what about the Orkneys? Dependent upon English tourism? Fully aware of the fragility of their locality and less willing to take a risk? More faith in Westminster than Edinburgh (perhaps they are far enough removed from Glasgow and Edinburgh to share little affinity with 'that' Scotland).Then the realisation that the vote of those aged 16 and 17 was split 71/29 in favour of a yes vote. Are the youth the most disenfranchised by the union or was this a cynical ploy to exploit the naivety and naturally rebellious nature of that age group?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Try these. Interesting viewing.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-pol...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/...
Moonhawk said:
2013BRM said:
do some digging, it covers everything from expenses to overseas donations
You mean this kind of thing?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10978937/Al...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-in...
2013BRM said:
Garvin said:
2013BRM said:
. . . . . . the political elite draining the country . . . .
What does this mean exactly, please explain?ks the country good and proper is the welfare bill which is now no longer a safety net for the real needy but also a gravy train for all the useless, lazy fkwits in the country who try their damnest to fiddle the system as well. This is the real drain on the country!You can chase insignificant emotional irritations all you want but that really will not change things - we need real statesman like politicians who can make a difference, changing the 'system' will not improve our politicians. Independence here and there will not get you better leaders - if you think the likes of Salmon and Sturgeon are any better than the politicians in Westminster then, I'm afraid, you are seriously deluded.
For example, if Scotland is as rich as Salmond and Sturgeon make out, why does it need more propping up under the Barnett formula? Surely all these rich folk and successful companies can pay their taxes with ease, still have high disposable income and enjoy a standard of living well in excess of the rest of UK without any need for independence. The facts are it isn't 't and it can't. Scotland has a massive welfare bill with a massive drain on its resources - independence was never going to change this, it runs a large deficit that independence had no way of filling! The SNP have lied through their teeth and yet they are somehow supposed to be better than other politicians. It's amazing just how many people suck up all the clap trap without engaging their own brains and doing a bit of rational thinking (although I think 55% of Scots may have done).
Garvin said:
2013BRM said:
Garvin said:
2013BRM said:
. . . . . . the political elite draining the country . . . .
What does this mean exactly, please explain?ks the country good and proper is the welfare bill which is now no longer a safety net for the real needy but also a gravy train for all the useless, lazy fkwits in the country who try their damnest to fiddle the system as well. This is the real drain on the country!You can chase insignificant emotional irritations all you want but that really will not change things - we need real statesman like politicians who can make a difference, changing the 'system' will not improve our politicians. Independence here and there will not get you better leaders - if you think the likes of Salmon and Sturgeon are any better than the politicians in Westminster then, I'm afraid, you are seriously deluded.
For example, if Scotland is as rich as Salmond and Sturgeon make out, why does it need more propping up under the Barnett formula? Surely all these rich folk and successful companies can pay their taxes with ease, still have high disposable income and enjoy a standard of living well in excess of the rest of UK without any need for independence. The facts are it isn't 't and it can't. Scotland has a massive welfare bill with a massive drain on its resources - independence was never going to change this, it runs a large deficit that independence had no way of filling! The SNP have lied through their teeth and yet they are somehow supposed to be better than other politicians. It's amazing just how many people suck up all the clap trap without engaging their own brains and doing a bit of rational thinking (although I think 55% of Scots may have done).
k sight easier to manage than 650 in London.Now, unless your are some kind of fiscal genius, and I doubt you are, then you cannot explain how the finances from Scotlands exports and oil relate to the welfare burden. I imagine it is an imaginary ratio very deliberately drip fed for people like you to regurgitate as gospel. We can argue the toss all we like on here but I think we will see UKIP gain in strength from this as the rest of the country looks a little closer at Westminster. Not many Scots see Salmond as a saviour, more as a means to an end
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's the latter of the two. I wouldn't have trusted a 17 year-old me to make a rational and well-informed decision. At that age one tends to know very little of the world and how it works but you think you know it all and older people who tell you otherwise are doddery old farts. Until you become an old fart yourself and realise they really did understand more than you.rovermorris999 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's the latter of the two. I wouldn't have trusted a 17 year-old me to make a rational and well-informed decision. At that age one tends to know very little of the world and how it works but you think you know it all and older people who tell you otherwise are doddery old farts. Until you become an old fart yourself and realise they really did understand more than you.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff