Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6

[confused_buyer]

xjsdriver said:

What the demographic information shows is that it's the over 65s who don't want change. The majority of younger people do want independence and attitudes to becoming independent will change over the next 20 to 25 years as the attitudes of those over 65 dwindle, as they do....

Yes, but these people are replaced by others who are also over 65 and also more conservative (with small 'c'). It is human nature that people get more risk adverse and against change as they get older. It is an inevitable human condition.

[Vipers]

Had another shufty on the 45 FB, what a load of drivel.

[plasticpig]

GetCarter said:

Whatever it was, it was a relief... I don't have to buy a place down south as my primary residence, and can continue to give my taxes to all of UK, rather than only England.

Unless Scotland truly gets devo-max and is wholly funded from it's own tax raising powers. In theory devo-max means only foreign policy and defence is controlled by Westminster.

[GetCarter]

plasticpig said:

GetCarter said:

Whatever it was, it was a relief... I don't have to buy a place down south as my primary residence, and can continue to give my taxes to all of UK, rather than only England.

Unless Scotland truly gets devo-max and is wholly funded from it's own tax raising powers. In theory devo-max means only foreign policy and defence is controlled by Westminster.

Yea, I know. Happy to pay tax here, but the currency thing could have really screwed me as I get paid by USA companies to London in USD, turning to UKP... turning to Scottish Groats might have been a bridge too far. Would rather pay tax than exchange rates to bankers!

[WinstonWolf]

xjsdriver said:

GetCarter said:

'cept loads of SNP voters voted 'no' (see demographic in post earlier)

This referendum was never about one's personal political persuasion - sadly, most elder people were swayed by fears over their pensions. The 45% represent the future of Scotland. The elderly were also probably swayed by nostalgic memories of an empire past, when Britain did indeed rule the waves. The days of empire are long past and the attitudes of those who hold these outdated ideals, will dwindle over the coming years. It's no longer a question of if Scotland will become independent - but when....

This was the vote of a generation, there will never be another in your lifetime. "Accept what you cannot change."

[Oakey]

xjsdriver said:

This referendum was never about one's personal political persuasion - sadly, most elder people were swayed by fears over their pensions. The 45% represent the future of Scotland. The elderly were also probably swayed by nostalgic memories of an empire past, when Britain did indeed rule the waves. The days of empire are long past and the attitudes of those who hold these outdated ideals, will dwindle over the coming years. It's no longer a question of if Scotland will become independent - but when....

Just how old do you think these elderly are exactly you plonker?

My grandfather is 85 and I'm fairly certain he doesn't have any 'nostalgic memories' of the Empire, you know, considering he was still a teenager up until 1949.

ETA: also, this post from the Yes FB page, lol

"John Reid: Was coming all the way and all the dirty scumbags (including my brother, makes me ashamed to call him that) who voted No should all hang their heads in SHAME!Keep fighting Scotland, FREEDOM WILL COME ONE DAY! A proud Scot in Sweden!"

Edited by Oakey on Saturday 20th September 15:32

[r11co]

xjsdriver said:

This referendum was never about one's personal political persuasion - sadly, most elder people were swayed by fears over their pensions. The 45% represent the future of Scotland....

Nonsense. Peoples' political views change as their circumstances change. The young get older, have savings and pensions, dependents and responsibilities, and will be become less cavalier with their prospects than they were.

[r11co]

ShaunTheSheep said:

r11co said:

lamboman100 said:

The tiny blue-green bit is the "Yes" wards. The huge red chunk is the "No" wards:

Missing the point a bit though. The tiny green bits are some of the most densely populated areas. A lot of the big red bits are just sheep and trees (although I do believe there were talks to give them the vote. )

It's not first past the post. This graphic shows NOTHING of relevance to the outcome.

Repeat after me, this graphic contains no information of relevance to the outcome. None, Nada. Zero.

I agree. You will see from the above that I have been misquoted. I made the same point in a different way. The map means nothing as it does not represent population, only land mass (and land mass doesn't get to vote, despite Alex Salmond requesting it be given the power to )

GetCarter said:

Red bits hold the majority of the Scottish human population... who all voted no

Totally wrong. The red bits show geographical areas where more people within the boundaries of those areas voted no than yes - another meaningless statistic though as all the votes were aggregated across the whole country.

Theoretically there could have been a national yes majority with only one tiny green splodge on that map - all it would take was for that one area to a Yes majority by 32 votes only, and the other 31 areas to be a No win by 1 vote.

Edited by r11co on Saturday 20th September 16:13

[Garvin]

2013BRM said:

. . . . . unless you are a Jock or have close ties with Scotland I just might have the edge over you in that respect.

Mrs Garvin's realtives on her father's side are all Scottish, mainly in Edinburgh but some in Burntisland and others in Haddington in the borders. One of her cousins and his wife run a cafe in Aviemore. We visit Scotland at least once a year and I really like the place!

2013BRM said:

. . . . . The turnout by the young was unusually high too and, I believe, voted Yes, this makes sense as they are too remote from pension worries or understand the state support system but are pretty proud of their roots. I think the campaign did a lot to galvanise the young and disenfranchised to look a little deeper into how their country is governed and by whom.

Yes, but they appeared to have thought about themselvers only which is a recognised trait of the young. They also have more ability to 'pick up sticks' and leave if it all goes wrong - bugger off and leave someone else to 'pick up the pieces'. I'm not convinced giving 16/17 year olds the vote in this sort of thing is particularly clever.

[fluffnik]

Welshbeef said:

So what will SNPs manifesto be for the 2015 general elections.... Um a referendum cannot be included

No reason why not.

[johnxjsc1985]

xjsdriver said:

This referendum was never about one's personal political persuasion - sadly, most elder people were swayed by fears over their pensions. The 45% represent the future of Scotland. The elderly were also probably swayed by nostalgic memories of an empire past, when Britain did indeed rule the waves. The days of empire are long past and the attitudes of those who hold these outdated ideals, will dwindle over the coming years. It's no longer a question of if Scotland will become independent - but when....

take Glasgow do you not think that the divide that is Celtic and Rangers would have voted completely opposite to each other bringing another dimension which distorted the vote.

[r11co]

johnxjsc1985 said:

take Glasgow do you not think that the divide that is Celtic and Rangers would have voted completely opposite to each other bringing another dimension which distorted the vote.

Don't believe it played any real part in the decision. I do think though that a lot of the 'never voted before and probably never will again' people treated the result like a football match though (because that is about the limit of their frame of reference).

[Neonblau]

xjsdriver said:

This referendum was never about one's personal political persuasion - sadly, most elder people were swayed by fears over their pensions. The 45% represent the future of Scotland. The elderly were also probably swayed by nostalgic memories of an empire past, when Britain did indeed rule the waves. The days of empire are long past and the attitudes of those who hold these outdated ideals, will dwindle over the coming years. It's no longer a question of if Scotland will become independent - but when....

Extremely unlikely to happen.

The Nats blew their one shot at it. Never again will the economic conditions be as favourable. North Sea oil will be all but gone, the demand for oil will probably be greatly reduced and the rest of the world will have caught up or overtaken us in solar/wind/alternative energy production (look at how many turbines the Chinese are currently building). Fracking in the US has already turned the market on its head, the US is oil independent and is now exporting diesel and some crude oil - unthinkable even 5 years ago. Geo-politics in the ME and Ukraine will also ensure that fracking in the UK will happen. All this will ensure a suppressed oil price and with North Sea extraction costs at $80 a barrel extraction will slow.

More importantly Scotland's population will have a massive age imbalance generating huge pension and healthcare costs that will be a drag on revenues and may indeed prove too big a burden without major reform.

Add all that to the inevitable economic and security uncertainties and the only ones calling for independence will be the "blood and soil" nationalists. The opposite is likley to be the case.

[johnxjsc1985]

r11co said:

Don't believe it played any real part in the decision. I do think though that a lot of the 'never voted before and probably never will again' people treated the result like a football match though (because that is about the limit of their frame of reference).

How many Union Jacks do you see at Celtic Park compared to Ibrox ?. The point I was making was that there are many many reasons why people vote the way they do most of them are selfish reasons.

[GetCarter]

r11co said:

GetCarter said:

Red bits hold the majority of the Scottish human population... who all voted no

Totally wrong. The red bits show geographical areas where more people within the boundaries of those areas voted no than yes - another meaningless statistic though as all the votes were aggregated across the whole country.

How wrong can a PH poster be? Each constituency in red voted no, not yes. They all voted no! Check out the facts. If it had been a general election it would have been a 'no' landslide.

Of course not everyone in Scotland in 28 constituencies voted no... just like they didn't vote yes in the 4 others. We get that. It was 28:4 in football terms and 55/45 in percentage terms.

'Yes' lost and should accept the fact and move on.

End of.

[r11co]

GetCarter said:

r11co said:

GetCarter said:

Red bits hold the majority of the Scottish human population... who all voted no

Totally wrong. The red bits show geographical areas where more people within the boundaries of those areas voted no than yes - another meaningless statistic though as all the votes were aggregated across the whole country.

How wrong can a PH poster be?

Take a look at yourself then. It was not a first past the post system - constituencies were irrelevant to the outcome - there was no such thing as a constituency voting no. Each ward announced a total that was added to the national total - no ward announced a yes or no win as it made no sense.

Incidentally I supported No from the beginning and even I appreciate that that map will mislead the ignorant.

Edited by r11co on Saturday 20th September 16:10

[GetCarter]

r11co said:

GetCarter said:

r11co said:

GetCarter said:

Red bits hold the majority of the Scottish human population... who all voted no

Totally wrong. The red bits show geographical areas where more people within the boundaries of those areas voted no than yes - another meaningless statistic though as all the votes were aggregated across the whole country.

How wrong can a PH poster be?

Take a look at yourself then. It was not a first past the post system - constituencies were irrelevant to the outcome.

Do you understand what vote aggregation means? You really are making a prat of yourself here.

Incidentally I supported No from the beginning and even I appreciate that that map will mislead the ignorant.

It's just frightening that you don't get the way it works. Never mind... move on.



BTW, yes lost.

[r11co]

GetCarter said:

It's just frightening that you don't get the way it works. Never mind... move on.

I understand it perfectly my friend. You on the other hand don't.

[GetCarter]

r11co said:

GetCarter said:

It's just frightening that you don't get the way it works. Never mind... move on.

I understand it perfectly my friend. You on the other hand don't.

I refer you to my last post. Yes lost. One of us is happy with the result.

[r11co]

GetCarter said:

I refer you to my last post. Yes lost. One of us is happy with the result.

You are blind as well as ignorant then....

r11co said:

Incidentally I supported No from the beginning and even I appreciate that that map will mislead the ignorant.