Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6

[Edinburger]

Moonhawk said:

....inconvenient, and therefore best ignored if anyone brings up the subject

You'll never get an answer - I have been asking the same question for months.

You don't seriously think those figures actually exist, do you ?

[Edinburger]

Moonhawk said:

But by your own figures -

1. Scotland is consistently spending far more than it is generating.
2. In two out of the six years - its expenditure as a percentage, exceeded its revenue generation.

Isn't it rather moot who spends what - when that spending is essentially going on a credit card.

It also shows the danger of relying on oil - the revenue is variable (and likely to decline). What happens when you start having more years of higher expenditure than revenue?

Just like the UK remember...

[Edinburger]

johnxjsc1985 said:

I did ask the question about Glasgow being a divided City along the lines of the two football clubs. one in Blue likes to fly the Union Jack one in green and white hoops ....erm does not

Assume you're being facetious and you do understand this?

It's not known as Scotland's Secret Shame for no reason...

[anonymous-user]

Funk said:

Spot on, cob.

Labour are desperate to try and retain power at any costs. Under whose authority does Brown speak? He is in no position to be making any promises or guaranteeing any terms whatsoever.

Cameron has played a blinder here, the linking of English-only votes on English-only matters with further devo is a masterstroke.

It's got the backing of public opinion and any objection by Labour makes them look weak or anti-English.

Salmond now reported on the BBC as saying no voters were "tricked" into voting no by devo max promises. Gracious tn defeat to the last. Although one assumes his real complaint is that soft southern bd politicians ended up being better at trickery than him.

Milliband desperately back pedalling from the idea of Scottish MPs not being able to vote on English matters. That's right, Ed, country first, party second. Or perhaps not.

And then Salmond pitches in blaming any delay in giving devo max (the thing that won't be given according to him due to trickery) on the Tories.

What a bunch of second racers.

[Edinburger]

Jader1973 said:

Unfortunately many of the Catholics see themselves as Irish and a Yes vote as an extension of the "Brits Out" mentality from NI. For many of them it was not about what is best for Scotland but rather getting one over on the British.

Not sure I agree completely with you - and you should refer to Nationalists or Republicans / Loyalists rather than Catholics / Protestants.

[Moonhawk]

Edinburger said:

You don't seriously think those figures actually exist, do you ?

They probably don't i'll concede that.....but given that at no point during the time that we do have figures has it been demonstrated that Scotland made a net contribution unless geographic share of oil was taken into account - is it not a reasonable to conclude that before oil was discovered or exploited - Scotland has been a net beneficiary for at least some of it's history (especially at the start of the union)?

[Moonhawk]

Edinburger said:

Just like the UK remember...

Yep - but UK (or rather rUK) weren't looking to try and renege on their responsibility or take the ball home were they?

[Edinburger]

Moonhawk said:

His actions since the result are just showing that for Salmond this was all about political aims rather than the good of Scotland.

What benefit to Scotland is s#it stirring now. He should the trying to reunite Scotland and should be looking towards making the most of Scotland's future within the UK.

You just can't with with some people. Scotland asked for a referendum - so it was given. Now a minority are complaining "we didn't get the result we wanted".

As for Salmond's claim that the referendum was won on the back of No voters being "tricked" by the last minute promises by the No camp regarding the additional powers - that really is laughable.

Only two polls showed Yes ahead at any stage during 2014 - and one of them we know had a massive weighting applied to get that result. Virtually every poll and even the underlying data for one of the "Yes ahead" polls indicated that No were going to win by about the margin they did. The promises of extra powers appear to have had little if any difference on the poll results. Then again - basing statements on facts and figures really doesn't seem to be one of Salmond's strong points.

Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 21st September 10:50

You're not suggesting the eleventh-hour panic offers from the Lib/Lab/Con leaders which we heard after a lot of postal vote was appropriate?

[Janluke]

Edinburger said:

Jader1973 said:

Unfortunately many of the Catholics see themselves as Irish and a Yes vote as an extension of the "Brits Out" mentality from NI. For many of them it was not about what is best for Scotland but rather getting one over on the British.

Not sure I agree completely with you - and you should refer to Nationalists or Republicans / Loyalists rather than Catholics / Protestants.

I would say "Some" not "Many" I am however in South Lanarkshire not the heart of the city.

[Moonhawk]

Greg66 said:

And then Salmond pitches in blaming any delay in giving devo max (the thing that won't be given according to him due to trickery) on the Tories.

Well.

1. I didn't see any firm timetable for delivering these powers other than the fact they will be delivered by whichever government gets elected in 2015 - so how can they be "late"?

2. Surely even if they are "late" (i.e. not delivered within the next term of government) - that will be the fault of whichever party is in power at the time they should have been delivered.

[Garvin]

Edinburger said:

Moonhawk said:

But by your own figures -

1. Scotland is consistently spending far more than it is generating.
2. In two out of the six years - its expenditure as a percentage, exceeded its revenue generation.

Isn't it rather moot who spends what - when that spending is essentially going on a credit card.

It also shows the danger of relying on oil - the revenue is variable (and likely to decline). What happens when you start having more years of higher expenditure than revenue?

Just like the UK remember...

Yes, and the UK isn't in a particularly good state is it? But it has a currency, a central bank, EU membership and a growing economy which allows it to 'survive' with the rather large and unfortunate credit card bill. iScotland could guarantee none of these, indeed it was facing clear statements regarding CU and EU membership that undermined its independent ambitions. Coupled with the uncertainty of it achieving all it's aims re oil and businesses clearly ready to vacate Scotland yet still making promises of increased spending and inexorably increasing its debt and deficit, the fiscal position of iScotland promised by Salmon and Sturgeon was completely laughable.

The yes voters owe the no voters eternal thanks for preventing Scotland being plunged into a whole world of pain.

[Moonhawk]

Edinburger said:

You're not suggesting the eleventh-hour panic offers from the Lib/Lab/Con leaders which we heard after a lot of postal vote was appropriate?

No - I don't think it was. They panicked based on the result of one (IMO dodgy) poll. They should have held their nerve.

However - looking at the poll results before and after, I don't think it made any difference to the final result. No were looking at a ~10% win all along - and thats what happened.

Even if it had some effect - it was minor (a couple of percent), it certainly didn't swing the referendum form a Yes win to a No win as Salmond seems to be suggesting.

Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 21st September 11:16

[Moonhawk]

Another thing that just occurred to me. Why is Salmond angry about the result.

Wasn't it Salmond who wanted a "Devo Max" option in the first place - in addition to Independence.

The last minute promises of extra powers, it could be argued, turned the referendum from Yes/No - to Yes/Devo Max.

Salmond should be happy - arguably he got what he wanted either way (Independence or Devo Max)?

Unless of course the Devo Max option was simply a ploy on his behalf to try and split the No vote in two

[Garvin]

Moonhawk said:

Well.

1. I didn't see any firm timetable for delivering these powers other than the fact they will be delivered by whichever government gets elected in 2015 - so how can they be "late"?

2. Surely even if they are "late" (i.e. not delivered within the next term of government) - that will be the fault of whichever party is in power at the time they should have been delivered.

Point 2 looks to be an interesting topic in the run up to the next election. If Cameron delays due to back bench Tories and is helped by Milliband delaying tactics then both Labour and Conservatives will be promising to implement the additional devolved powers to Scotland. The difference is the Conservatives will be offering similar stuff to England, Wales and NI with the West Lothian question solved to boot with back benchers in line. Labour will be staring down the barrel at this point and in dire, dire difficulties and the Conservatives will also have a major plus point over UKIP!

Could be an exciting election campaign by all parties.

[Edinburger]

Claim of vote rigging. Check out this video at 2.16 -

http://youtu.be/LbJif7vISQg

Edited by Edinburger on Sunday 21st September 11:30

[Troubleatmill]

Edinburger said:

I hear there's been a claim of vote rigging.

Check out this video at 2.17: http://youtu.be/LbJif7vISQg.

Link doesn't work..... (Edit... Now it does)

But - I'd wager that this is the one where the YES papers are sat on the NO table.

The same one - that the YES campaign posted up of FB that "All was above board. Don't panic"

The NO table is the final area for NO results. The table was an interim staging area.




Here you go.
http://metro.co.uk/2014/09/19/scottish-independenc...


If it is good enough for YES DUNDEE - then it is debunked.

Edited by Troubleatmill on Sunday 21st September 11:35

[marshalla]

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I reckon stage 5 is due in about 125 years at this rate.

[Gogoplata]

The "45ers"on my FB feed are getting their knickers in a twist over this article:

http://dailycurrant.com/2014/09/20/worlds-largest-...

I was going to point out the obvious, but I think I'll just leave them to it

[Moonhawk]

Edinburger said:

Claim of vote rigging. Check out this video at 2.16 -

http://youtu.be/LbJif7vISQg

First vid looks like a simple mistake being rectified - easily done.

Second vid has already been explained.

Third cannot really be taken as evidence for anything. We cannot see what is being written on or what is being written. Even if we assume this guy is modifying or filling in ballots - the video doesn't show which way. Could as easily be a Yes supporter boosting votes as a No.

[hidetheelephants]

imagineifyeswill said:

I hear the latest on FB is the Yes campaign are organise a petition for a rerun, what was that they were saying previously about the will of the people, frankly these fanatics are never going to give up until they get there own way there like spoilt children. There are morons on facebook.

I believe I have summarised this for you; it may help you discriminate between normal people and those who would benefit from some ignorage.