Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6

[fluffnik]

Rick_1138 said:

As an aside, I heard on the radio that the SNP is now the 3rd largest party but I didn't catch if that was in Scotland alone or the UK as a whole, as if its the UK that's a surprise...and a bit scary.

UK wide.

We might well end up the biggest.

[Rollin]

Moonhawk said:

fluffnik said:

The purpose of the exercise is to end the UK after all.

I guess if the 'win' is so important that you'd sacrifice honour and integrity to get it - be my guest.

I dislike "win by any means" types as much as I dislike nationalists.

How dare you question him about what's right for Scotland...He made his mind up at 14 when he flounced out of the cubs.

[fluffnik]

hantsxlg said:

fluffnik,
do you work for the EU?

No, but I do think it's mostly a Good Thing.

hantsxlg said:

move on and try and make Scotland, and the UK prosper.

I don't think those aims are compatible, and it's Scotland I care about.

[Janluke]

Rollin said:

How dare you question him about what's right for Scotland...He made his mind up at 14 when he flounced out of the cubs.

Its was the oath to the Queen wasn't it

[Rollin]

fluffnik said:

Rick_1138 said:

As an aside, I heard on the radio that the SNP is now the 3rd largest party but I didn't catch if that was in Scotland alone or the UK as a whole, as if its the UK that's a surprise...and a bit scary.

UK wide.

We might well end up the biggest.

Bloody hell! A whole party of bad losers. You expect that lot to 'turn' no voters?

[Rollin]

Janluke said:

Rollin said:

How dare you question him about what's right for Scotland...He made his mind up at 14 when he flounced out of the cubs.

Its was the oath to the Queen wasn't it

Failed his cooking badge.

[Rovinghawk]

fluffnik said:

hantsxlg said:

fluffnik,
do you work for the EU?

No, but I do think it's mostly a Good Thing.

Being ruled from a foreign country? I thought you were against that sort of thing?

fluffnik said:

hantsxlg said:

move on and try and make Scotland, and the UK prosper.

I don't think those aims are compatible

A rising tide lifts all boats, surely?

[fluffnik]

hornetrider said:

fluffnik said:

That vote was lost, the next one wont be, so we'll get both democracy and independence.

You got democracy this time dipst.

It's a process, opinions change...

I think the UKofGB&NI's claim to be democratic is marginal at best - FPTP, HoL, Monarchy, etc. are anti-democratic.

[tvrolet]

fluffnik said:

I don't think those aims are compatible, and it's Scotland I care about.

Yea. In much the same way as Fred West cared about his lodgers...

[Moonhawk]

fluffnik said:

We might well end up the biggest.

It's not really a massive boast though looking at how the membership of political parties has plummeted over the years:



It's easy to become the heavyweight when your competitors are all on diets.

[Slurms]

fluffnik said:

It's a process, opinions change...

They do and they might well not change the way you want.

Still you've got another 20 years to wait for the next one so plenty of time to work on that campaign.

[Mojocvh]

fluffnik said:

Rick_1138 said:

As an aside, I heard on the radio that the SNP is now the 3rd largest party but I didn't catch if that was in Scotland alone or the UK as a whole, as if its the UK that's a surprise...and a bit scary.

UK wide.

We might well end up the biggest.

What'd ya expect when ya get a discount for being a doley??

[fluffnik]

Rollin said:

How dare you question him about what's right for Scotland...He made his mind up at 14 when he flounced out of the cubs.

8 or 9, no flouncing involved.

The roots of my disgust with the British Empire date from my reading of a pre-war history text book with a distinctly imperial viewpoint around that time.

My desire for Scottish independence is more anti-imperial than nationalist...

[HenryJM]

doogz said:

So, you want Scotland to be independent, because you read a history book, in which you didn't approve of the tone the author took, when you were 8.

Hey, that's pretty good by his standards!

[durbster]

Ah, politics.

[anonymous-user]

fluffnik said:

8 or 9, no flouncing involved.

The roots of my disgust with the British Empire date from my reading of a pre-war history text book with a distinctly imperial viewpoint around that time.

My desire for Scottish independence is more anti-imperial than nationalist...

Interesting. You realise that it was the British Empire, and not the English Empire, right? The Scots, the Welsh and the Irish ran it too. And that it was the largest in history, led global industrialisation, effecting a change that was arguably one of the greatest in the history of the civilised world, and exporting concepts like the rule of law all over the globe?

Or do you just prefer to dwell on what you don't like about it?

[fluffnik]

Janluke said:

Rollin said:

How dare you question him about what's right for Scotland...He made his mind up at 14 when he flounced out of the cubs.

Its was the oath to the Queen wasn't it

In part, not believing in God either kinda sealed it.

I'd not long been promoted to Sixer when I concluded that I couldn't make the Scout Promise in good faith.

I just said "Sorry, I can't say this, I don't believe in it" and made my farewells.

Paradoxically this likely meant that I took it more seriously than most...

[technodup]

fluffnik said:

UK wide.

We might well end up the biggest.

So? To what benefit?

If it's raising money, you just need to ask the Weirs, they just spunked a couple of million on a failed Yes campaign. And it's not as if you need new ideas seeing as there's only one thing you're interested in.

Bragging right for twelve months until half the joiners lapse their direct debits? Big fking deal.

[HenryJM]

Greg66 said:

Interesting. You realise that it was the British Empire, and not the English Empire, right? The Scots, the Welsh and the Irish ran it too. And that it was the largest in history, led global industrialisation, effecting a change that was arguably one of the greatest in the history of the civilised world, and exporting concepts like the rule of law all over the globe?

Or do you just prefer to dwell on what you don't like about it?

It's worth a read of 'Scotland and the British Empire' for those not into the background. A quote from a review:

"The British Empire was never wholly English, of course, or even predominantly so. Scotland had its own colonial enterprises before the Act of Union (1707), and afterwards arguably contributed more to their joint imperial project than its southern neighbour. Of course you don’t find the Scots celebrating this much now, as imperialism is no longer generally considered to have been A Good Thing and the idea that they were colonial victims seems a better card to play for a people striving (some of them) for national independence. Today’s academic Scottish historians, however, know that ‘it is far too simplistic to consider the British Celtic fringe (and Scotland in particular) as somehow in a quasi-colonial relationship with the central and dominant English power."

[Moonhawk]

fluffnik said:

8 or 9, no flouncing involved.

The roots of my disgust with the British Empire date from my reading of a pre-war history text book with a distinctly imperial viewpoint around that time.

My desire for Scottish independence is more anti-imperial than nationalist...

We can all live in the past - but what does that achieve. The UK/England today isn't the 'Imperial master' it once was.

How long to we hold past grudges? And who do we hold them against. Are the sins of the father visited upon the sons. Are people living in England today responsible for the atrocities committed by English nobility hundreds of years ago.

What happens with somebody like myself who has ancestry from both sides. Should I feel guilty for the atrocities my English forebears may have dished out. Do I have to take their burden simply because I happened to have been born in England?. Alternatively - can I feel like a victim because my Scottish forebears may have suffered because of the same actions.

Arguably the worst atrocities in the last 2000 years were carried out by Germany. Should we all be disgusted with Germany for the foreseeable future - or do we take a more pragmatic approach and concede that the people who perpetrated those deeds are mostly dead or behind bars and that the world must inevitably move on. Germany is not the country it was 70 odd years ago - just like England/UK isn't the same country as it was 250 years ago. It was the people alive at the time who carried out bad deeds - not the country and not the people living in that country today.

Edited by Moonhawk on Tuesday 23 September 17:42