Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
arp1 said:
Bleat bleat bleat, the scots get this that and the next thing for free... Remember it's how the government chooses to spend their pocket money, not our fault your government chooses not to spend it in such a way...
Which is fine, just don't forget where your pocket money comes from & be careful what you wish for in terms of greater control over taxation etc.Wombat3 said:
arp1 said:
Bleat bleat bleat, the scots get this that and the next thing for free... Remember it's how the government chooses to spend their pocket money, not our fault your government chooses not to spend it in such a way...
Which is fine, just don't forget where your pocket money comes from & be careful what you wish for in terms of greater control over taxation etc.
kers who has no understanding of moneypart of me wishes he had won so i could die laughing from south of the border when they realised scotland does not pay more then it spends
Edinburger said:
///ajd said:
Edinburger said:
///ajd said:
There is no link between free university for millionaires and having lots of mountains.
30% of land mass is not a justification for free university spending.
It just suggests the SG are spending the extra money allocated on luxuries, not on essentials.
Enough!
Bye bye TBF. Rest in peace.
I, and others, have repeatedly explained the "free university" thing. 30% of land mass is not a justification for free university spending.
It just suggests the SG are spending the extra money allocated on luxuries, not on essentials.
Enough!
Bye bye TBF. Rest in peace.
You either don't understand it or don't want to understand it.
Can't help you in that case.
You cannot escape that fact.
Identifiable spending on higher education is much higher per person in Scotland than in the UK as a whole: £265 compared with £187 in 2011–12
What does landmass have to do with that?
This is an abridged version of something previously posted:
The reason that English students have to pay is simply down to economics and also the devolution arrangements which do not let Scotland raise its own finances. So, there is a fixed budget passed down from UK, which has to be allocated to the devolved priorities of the Scottish government of the day, currently the SNP.
Education is a devolved policy, and is therefore funded out of the budget (the block grant).
University education costs money - someone has to pay. The SNP stood on a manifesto of free education to students. As a result it has made a policy decision to spend money on that provision, and not on others. In contrast, the UK elected govt has made policy choices which involve charging students for education, and therefore freeing up money to spend on other things. Fair enough - voters can choose which they prefer.
However, you now have one part of the UK charging up to £9k per head, and another providing it free. (In my opinion, education should be free, but that's not the point).
If you are an English resident, you would have the choice of paying fees in England, or else going to any Scottish university and saving potentially £30-40k in fees alone. Anyone can see that potentially 10.000s + of students may decide to do that.
In that case,because of the current financial arrangements, the Scottish budget (income) would be raised by exactly £0 in order or cover these extra costs of providing free education for these scholarly migrants, Potentially a big financial black hole whereby cuts would have to be made to other areas of the elected Scottish government's areas of reponsibility.
It can't even raise taxes or borrow in order to provide for these extra students. Nor can it offer incentives for them to stay and work after university to recover their fees, not would the Scottish government receive income from any student loans being repaid in future.
So, those who are outraged are asking for the Scottish Govt to cut its services in other areas in order to provide free education for students from England who would be fleeing economic policies of an elected UK government which won't provide any compensation in return, even though education and financing of such is a devolved policy.
The next question is then why only English students. The answer is firstly technical in that it is not legal to charge other EU students. Non-EU students do have to pay fees, as there is no law to stop this. And, secondly it's down to simple geography and numbers of students who might cross the border for free schooling - potentially crippling for Scottish education system. Even without the geographical proximity, there is the fact that there is not such a need for other EU students to chase free education as they do not have to pay nearly the same fees as English students...
Education is a classic example of the different priorities of the two political systems and also the straitjacket that current fiscal arrangements put on the Scottish governments policy choices. This is the sort of thing that causes bad feeling - not anti English sentiment, but systemic problems which force bad compromises which are the simplistically labelled 'racism' to ironically suit an agenda of stereotyping the SNP and/or Yes voters,
Maybe you should ask the SNP Minister for Education, who is English, if he's anti-English....
1. Just because a party has a specific policy doesn't make it deliverable or affordable. The SNP could offer everyone a free Ferrari in their 2016 Manifesto, but that doesn't make it deliverable. You can't just say "ah but the English could vote for free Ferraris too if they wanted". It is not fair to simply start spending more per head in one area without either consequences or taxing them more.
2. I've realised that the funding of free uni education has a delayed action on budgets. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but the following example may apply. I'll ignore inflation and use easy numbers (not correct, but the maths is easier and shows the principle) :-
i) assume Uni places cost £10Bn a year in UK in 2014. Assume Scotland has 10% of popluation and 10% of students in HE. Hence Scotland contributes £1Bn and gets £1Bn spent on students. rUK contributes £9Bn and gets £9Bn spent on students. Ignore the Barnett bonus for a minute.
ii) Now, the subtlety here is that in both Scotland AND rUK - the government fully funds all Uni to the tune of £10Bn. Everyone gets free education. The difference is that in the rUK, £9Bn is loaned, whereas in Scotland £1Bn is given for free.
iii) This means that, e.g. in 5-10 years, perhaps upto 50% of the £9Bn spent in the rUK in 2025 will be funded by the students of today (2015) paying back their loans. In Scotland none of that £1Bn will be funded by students.
iv) If the rUK can rely on 50% of uni funding in the future (2025) coming from todays students, it can cut back tax based spending by 50%. I.e. the rUK taxpayer would spend only £4.5Bn on education in 2025, with the other £4.5Bn coming from the graduates in jobs earning over £25k or whatever the threshold is. Now 10% of that £4.5Bn taxpayer spend for Scotland would see the Scot Govt with only £450k to fund a £1Bn bill to provide free uni for all. In other words more than £550k would need to be found from other priorities.
I hope that is how it is planned to work, and that NO english student loan money goes into funding Scottish Uni funding. So the SNP are effectively already "borrowing" for future generations - and giving that money to millionaires.
The current SG policy looks unsustainable and a short term vote winning policy that will bite hard in years to come.
It will be interesting to see how the Nats manage to decide this funding black hole will be "Westminsters fault".
Edited by ///ajd on Monday 27th October 19:28
Edinburger said:
You do realise that the so-called "free university" in Scotland is part self-funded?
Firstly its from rUK students c£140m out of the £400 mNow the rest comes from where? What exactly do Scots not get which rUK get... Answer nothing they get everything rUK does plus free education free prescription free OAP care homes.
What are the SNP going to cut to pay for their share of the £1.7billion EU wealth tax? Curious really as if they cut nothing and the Barnet formulae isn't adjusted to account for it then by default rUK is paying for Scotland's element.
I hope they do pay their own way rather than letting it slip and others pay for them... That's just not cricket.
It's remarkably easy to spend billions more than you earn when you're not responsible for earning it, eh?
As time goes on, I think more and more that the abolition of the Scottish parliament is a good shout.
Or keep it, but make them meet with Westminster now and again over reserved powers (like our MPs do at present) or something. And delete the MPs.
Put everyone in the same boat with regards to tax/spend responsibilities.
As time goes on, I think more and more that the abolition of the Scottish parliament is a good shout.
Or keep it, but make them meet with Westminster now and again over reserved powers (like our MPs do at present) or something. And delete the MPs.
Put everyone in the same boat with regards to tax/spend responsibilities.
Hi burger,
That letter is just vacuous.
You could equally say Scotland now lies divided over its future - 45% resenting the 55% and refusing to accept the majority view. Is that what he means by empowered? Empowered to bleat on for years? Bravo.
Any how, any comment on how the SNP will fill the blackhole of free uni funding that will open up, or do you expect revenues from English student fees to pay for Scottish uni through an abuse of the Barnett?
That letter is just vacuous.
You could equally say Scotland now lies divided over its future - 45% resenting the 55% and refusing to accept the majority view. Is that what he means by empowered? Empowered to bleat on for years? Bravo.
Any how, any comment on how the SNP will fill the blackhole of free uni funding that will open up, or do you expect revenues from English student fees to pay for Scottish uni through an abuse of the Barnett?
///ajd said:
Hi burger,
That letter is just vacuous.
You could equally say Scotland now lies divided over its future - 45% resenting the 55% and refusing to accept the majority view. Is that what he means by empowered? Empowered to bleat on for years? Bravo.
Any how, any comment on how the SNP will fill the blackhole of free uni funding that will open up, or do you expect revenues from English student fees to pay for Scottish uni through an abuse of the Barnett?
Oh and how will they fill the £400,000,000 p/a funding shortfall for NHS Scotland?That letter is just vacuous.
You could equally say Scotland now lies divided over its future - 45% resenting the 55% and refusing to accept the majority view. Is that what he means by empowered? Empowered to bleat on for years? Bravo.
Any how, any comment on how the SNP will fill the blackhole of free uni funding that will open up, or do you expect revenues from English student fees to pay for Scottish uni through an abuse of the Barnett?
Scotland has the most lied to population in the northern hemisphere, the local government continued constantly with lies and nonsense trying to make sure that their electorate got conned into thinking stuff could happen, when it clearly wouldn't.
Fortunately the good people of the scottish population came out in numbers to stop it being a reality, something that the whole nation should be grateful for them to do against the lies and nonsense from the likes of Alex Salmond.
Fortunately the good people of the scottish population came out in numbers to stop it being a reality, something that the whole nation should be grateful for them to do against the lies and nonsense from the likes of Alex Salmond.
el stovey said:
Welshbeef said:
Don't see the Torys in that diagram any reason?
Because you don't know what their logo looks like? Burger? How are the SNP going to fund free uni when the funding allocated in rUK goes down due to the loan repayments kicking in? Any ideas what will be cut or which taxes will be raised?
///ajd said:
To be fair to Welshb, the new tory logo could not be trying any harder to be not like the old well known tory flame. I had to google it.
Burger? How are the SNP going to fund free uni when the funding allocated in rUK goes down due to the loan repayments kicking in? Any ideas what will be cut or which taxes will be raised?
Lol he is still thinking what will be cut to pay the EU Scotland's share of the wealth tax. Its not far off what free Uni fees cost the budget. Burger? How are the SNP going to fund free uni when the funding allocated in rUK goes down due to the loan repayments kicking in? Any ideas what will be cut or which taxes will be raised?
Actually this is probably another plus for not being Indy - SNP claimed Scotland had a far higher GDP per capita than rUK as such they would have to chip in even more now in addition to loss of the rebate hmm jn addition to oil price being $80 when SNP plans were min oil price $110..... Ouch.
Sturgeon on the radio this morning saying it wouldn't be fair if the UK votes to leave the EU if Scots voted to stay. Further divisive politics and evidence that the SNP don't care about the result of the referendum and the considered will of the Scottish people.
Disgusting what they are doing to our countries.
Disgusting what they are doing to our countries.
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