Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6

[Wombat3]

Edinburger said:

Wombat3 said:

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

As many have predicted for a while, the SNP only wanted a referendum to stir up their own support. Clearly it's worked, they're now more popular according to the polls and as an added bonus they've managed to brainwash a large number of their supporters into ignoring any criticism against them.

Scary times for our democracy.

Depends on how you look at it.

The SNP have engaged many, many more people with politics - is that a bad thing?

Politics are changing in lots of ways since the referendum and I don't think everything I see is a bad step.

On the basis that they have proven to be lying and deceitful s, its not a great thing that so many people are stupid enough to follow them.

Show me any political party who've never been called "lying" and "deceitful"?

Usual deflective rubbish from you

a) If true that's no reason for the SNP to follow suit - especially when they claim to be the "the new way" for Scotland

b) They have taken the practise to new extremes and new levels. I can't work out whether that's because they are so deluded that they actually believe half of the ste they come out with or whether they are just so arrogant and fking thick that they think nobody will realise what utter ste they come out with.

What is unarguably clear is that there is nastiness and bile just bubbling beneath the surface of practically everything that comes from the SNP

Utter s, the lot of them, I wouldn't cross the road to piss on them if they were on fire.

Edited by Wombat3 on Monday 3rd November 12:57

[Axionknight]

I think for this discussion to advance we need you to come off of the fence Wombat! :-)

[Edinburger]

Wombat3 said:

Edinburger said:

Wombat3 said:

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

As many have predicted for a while, the SNP only wanted a referendum to stir up their own support. Clearly it's worked, they're now more popular according to the polls and as an added bonus they've managed to brainwash a large number of their supporters into ignoring any criticism against them.

Scary times for our democracy.

Depends on how you look at it.

The SNP have engaged many, many more people with politics - is that a bad thing?

Politics are changing in lots of ways since the referendum and I don't think everything I see is a bad step.

On the basis that they have proven to be lying and deceitful s, its not a great thing that so many people are stupid enough to follow them.

Show me any political party who've never been called "lying" and "deceitful"?

Usual deflective rubbish from you

a) If true that's no reason for the SNP you follow suit - especially when they claim to be the "the new way" for Scotland

b) They have taken the practise to new extremes and new levels. I can't work out whether that's because they are so deluded that they actually believe half of the ste they come out with or whether they are just so arrogant and fking thick that they think nobody will realise what utter ste they come out with.

What is unarguably clear is that there is nastiness and bile just bubbling beneath the surface of practically everything that comes from the SNP

Utter s, the lot of them, I wouldn't cross the road to piss on them if they were on fire.

Not sure why you think that was "deflective rubbish" but you didn't answer my question.

Anyway, I'm not familiar with most of what you said. Hey ho.

[Edinburger]

Axionknight said:

I think for this discussion to advance we need you to come off of the fence Wombat! :-)

[Wombat3]

Axionknight said:

I think for this discussion to advance we need you to come off of the fence Wombat! :-)

Mean what you say, say what you mean.

(something the SNP might do well to learn from )

[Edinburger]

Wombat3 said:

Axionknight said:

I think for this discussion to advance we need you to come off of the fence Wombat! :-)

Mean what you say, say what you mean.

(something the SNP might do well to learn from )

Even though they did deliver on most of their manifesto commitments in the previous Scottish government - and as a minority? Was it 84 of 94, I think?

Has any Westminster government ever came close to that?

[Wombat3]

Edinburger said:

Wombat3 said:

Edinburger said:

Wombat3 said:

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

As many have predicted for a while, the SNP only wanted a referendum to stir up their own support. Clearly it's worked, they're now more popular according to the polls and as an added bonus they've managed to brainwash a large number of their supporters into ignoring any criticism against them.

Scary times for our democracy.

Depends on how you look at it.

The SNP have engaged many, many more people with politics - is that a bad thing?

Politics are changing in lots of ways since the referendum and I don't think everything I see is a bad step.

On the basis that they have proven to be lying and deceitful s, its not a great thing that so many people are stupid enough to follow them.

Show me any political party who've never been called "lying" and "deceitful"?

Usual deflective rubbish from you

a) If true that's no reason for the SNP you follow suit - especially when they claim to be the "the new way" for Scotland

b) They have taken the practise to new extremes and new levels. I can't work out whether that's because they are so deluded that they actually believe half of the ste they come out with or whether they are just so arrogant and fking thick that they think nobody will realise what utter ste they come out with.

What is unarguably clear is that there is nastiness and bile just bubbling beneath the surface of practically everything that comes from the SNP

Utter s, the lot of them, I wouldn't cross the road to piss on them if they were on fire.

Not sure why you think that was "deflective rubbish" but you didn't answer my question.

Anyway, I'm not familiar with most of what you said. Hey ho.

Nothing wrong with people being engaged. The problem is that they are being lied to and led up the garden path to some kind of Utopian, Never-Never land by lying s.

Not familiar with the SNP's lies and deceit?

Where would you like us to start?

Though some (perhaps less charitable than me ) might, even legitimately, question the veracity of your statement though.

[Wombat3]

Edinburger said:

Wombat3 said:

Axionknight said:

I think for this discussion to advance we need you to come off of the fence Wombat! :-)

Mean what you say, say what you mean.

(something the SNP might do well to learn from )

Even though they did deliver on most of their manifesto commitments in the previous Scottish government - and as a minority? Was it 84 of 94, I think?

Has any Westminster government ever came close to that?

Toy town politics around toy-town issues are not too difficult to deliver on. Just thank your lucky stars they don't have their hands on the credit card.

[Edinburger]

Wombat3 said:

Edinburger said:

Wombat3 said:

Edinburger said:

Wombat3 said:

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

As many have predicted for a while, the SNP only wanted a referendum to stir up their own support. Clearly it's worked, they're now more popular according to the polls and as an added bonus they've managed to brainwash a large number of their supporters into ignoring any criticism against them.

Scary times for our democracy.

Depends on how you look at it.

The SNP have engaged many, many more people with politics - is that a bad thing?

Politics are changing in lots of ways since the referendum and I don't think everything I see is a bad step.

On the basis that they have proven to be lying and deceitful s, its not a great thing that so many people are stupid enough to follow them.

Show me any political party who've never been called "lying" and "deceitful"?

Usual deflective rubbish from you

a) If true that's no reason for the SNP you follow suit - especially when they claim to be the "the new way" for Scotland

b) They have taken the practise to new extremes and new levels. I can't work out whether that's because they are so deluded that they actually believe half of the ste they come out with or whether they are just so arrogant and fking thick that they think nobody will realise what utter ste they come out with.

What is unarguably clear is that there is nastiness and bile just bubbling beneath the surface of practically everything that comes from the SNP

Utter s, the lot of them, I wouldn't cross the road to piss on them if they were on fire.

Not sure why you think that was "deflective rubbish" but you didn't answer my question.

Anyway, I'm not familiar with most of what you said. Hey ho.

Nothing wrong with people being engaged. The problem is that they are being lied to and led up the garden path to some kind of Utopian, Never-Never land by lying s.

Not familiar with the SNP's lies and deceit?

Where would you like us to start?

Though some (perhaps less charitable than me ) might, even legitimately, question the veracity of your statement though.

Just to be clear as I know you have a selective memory - I'm not huge fan of the SNP and many of their policies. However, they are a very credible and viable alternative to the usual Lib/Lab/Con suspects, and as I've said before they've been a very good government for the people of Scotland, regardless of your views on the independnece referendum.

[McWigglebum4th]

Edinburger said:

Even though they did deliver on most of their manifesto commitments in the previous Scottish government - and as a minority? Was it 84 of 94, I think?

Has any Westminster government ever came close to that?

really?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_04_1...

[Welshbeef]

McWigglebum4th said:

Edinburger said:

Even though they did deliver on most of their manifesto commitments in the previous Scottish government - and as a minority? Was it 84 of 94, I think?

Has any Westminster government ever came close to that?

really?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_04_1...

Wow that's a lot of broken promises - have they actually delivered on any of their promises?


Burger - where did you get 84 out of 94? Is that the sort of thing SNP spew out or pro yes spew out but when faced with hard facts shout over then in ignorance

[simoid]

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

As many have predicted for a while, the SNP only wanted a referendum to stir up their own support. Clearly it's worked, they're now more popular according to the polls and as an added bonus they've managed to brainwash a large number of their supporters into ignoring any criticism against them.

Scary times for our democracy.

Depends on how you look at it.

The SNP have engaged many, many more people with politics - is that a bad thing?

Politics are changing in lots of ways since the referendum and I don't think everything I see is a bad step.

Tbh I get the impression that, in the main, the only reason people got involved with politics was to get an independent Scotland.

Now the SNP is falsely selling the idea that they could get this if they vote SNP. Blatant dishonest lies. Antidemocracy.

The SNP could do whatever the fk they want and they'd still have the votes of these new political enthusiasts who think Westminster, the BBC and the Orange Order colluded and fixed the vote so it was a resounding no vote.

#the45 #freedom

[xjsdriver]

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

There is no link between free university for millionaires and having lots of mountains.

30% of land mass is not a justification for free university spending.

It just suggests the SG are spending the extra money allocated on luxuries, not on essentials.

Enough!

Bye bye TBF. Rest in peace.

I, and others, have repeatedly explained the "free university" thing.

You either don't understand it or don't want to understand it.

Can't help you in that case.

You can't explain it as it is patently a benefit to Scots only, which either directly or otherwise, is enabled by the additional funding (£1200 per capita) provided under Barnett.

You cannot escape that fact.

Identifiable spending on higher education is much higher per person in Scotland than in the UK as a whole: £265 compared with £187 in 2011–12

What does landmass have to do with that?

Err... yes. We're given a budget to spend as we choose. Simple as that. We choose to spend some of that on removing tuition fees. English politicians choose to charge.

I thought I'd have a look in and see how everyone was doing....and Eff me!!!, it's still the same old usual suspects getting pinker and pinker as their blood pressure starts rising. Ed, they don't want to listen to anyone's views, but their own.....
They will steadfastly argue that black is white....and then go on about lefties spending other people's money, whilst ignoring the fact that the Tories have been even quicker to max out the country's overdraft.......with very little to show for it.

[///ajd]

xjsdriver said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

Edinburger said:

///ajd said:

There is no link between free university for millionaires and having lots of mountains.

30% of land mass is not a justification for free university spending.

It just suggests the SG are spending the extra money allocated on luxuries, not on essentials.

Enough!

Bye bye TBF. Rest in peace.

I, and others, have repeatedly explained the "free university" thing.

You either don't understand it or don't want to understand it.

Can't help you in that case.

You can't explain it as it is patently a benefit to Scots only, which either directly or otherwise, is enabled by the additional funding (£1200 per capita) provided under Barnett.

You cannot escape that fact.

Identifiable spending on higher education is much higher per person in Scotland than in the UK as a whole: £265 compared with £187 in 2011–12

What does landmass have to do with that?

Err... yes. We're given a budget to spend as we choose. Simple as that. We choose to spend some of that on removing tuition fees. English politicians choose to charge.

I thought I'd have a look in and see how everyone was doing....and Eff me!!!, it's still the same old usual suspects getting pinker and pinker as their blood pressure starts rising. Ed, they don't want to listen to anyone's views, but their own.....
They will steadfastly argue that black is white....and then go on about lefties spending other people's money, whilst ignoring the fact that the Tories have been even quicker to max out the country's overdraft.......with very little to show for it.

XJS, have a read of this:

---

1. Just because a party has a specific policy doesn't make it deliverable or affordable. The SNP could offer everyone a free Ferrari in their 2016 Manifesto, but that doesn't make it deliverable. You can't just say "ah but the English could vote for free Ferraris too if they wanted". It is not fair to simply start spending more per head in one area without either consequences or taxing them more.


2. I've realised that the funding of free uni education has a delayed action on budgets. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but the following example may apply. I'll ignore inflation and use easy numbers (not correct, but the maths is easier and shows the principle) :-

i) assume Uni places cost £10Bn a year in UK in 2014. Assume Scotland has 10% of popluation and 10% of students in HE. Hence Scotland contributes £1Bn and gets £1Bn spent on students. rUK contributes £9Bn and gets £9Bn spent on students. Ignore the Barnett bonus for a minute.

ii) Now, the subtlety here is that in both Scotland AND rUK - the government fully funds all Uni to the tune of £10Bn. Everyone gets free education. The difference is that in the rUK, £9Bn is loaned, whereas in Scotland £1Bn is given for free.

iii) This means that, e.g. in 5-10 years, perhaps upto 50% of the £9Bn spent in the rUK in 2025 will be funded by the students of today (2015) paying back their loans. In Scotland none of that £1Bn will be funded by students.

iv) If the rUK can rely on 50% of uni funding in the future (2025) coming from todays students, it can cut back tax based spending by 50%. I.e. the rUK taxpayer would spend only £4.5Bn on education in 2025, with the other £4.5Bn coming from the graduates in jobs earning over £25k or whatever the threshold is. Now 10% of that £4.5Bn taxpayer spend for Scotland would see the Scot Govt with only £450k to fund a £1Bn bill to provide free uni for all. In other words more than £550k would need to be found from other priorities.

I hope that is how it is planned to work, and that NO english student loan money goes into funding Scottish Uni funding. So the SNP are effectively already "borrowing" for future generations - and giving that money to millionaires.

The current SG policy looks unsustainable and a short term vote winning policy that will bite hard in years to come.

It will be interesting to see how the Nats manage to decide this funding black hole will be "Westminsters fault".

---

How do you propose to fill this funding hole? What will you cut spending on? Or how much will your raise taxes?
Any sort of plan? Or just blame westminster?
Can you see - popular though it is - how short sighted the free uni policy actually is?

[Welshbeef]

xjsdriver said:

I thought I'd have a look in and see how everyone was doing....and Eff me!!!, it's still the same old usual suspects getting pinker and pinker as their blood pressure starts rising. Ed, they don't want to listen to anyone's views, but their own.....
They will steadfastly argue that black is white....and then go on about lefties spending other people's money, whilst ignoring the fact that the Tories have been even quicker to max out the country's overdraft.......with very little to show for it.

You forget the choice was to cut so hard it wouldn't be an acceptable situation hence the plan B a more smooth and less serve set of cuts /no actual cute just less year on year increases.

The fact is Ed Balls has finally come out only the other week and confirmed Labour were running a structural deficit throughout the 2000-2010. So no Tory and lib dems didn't max out if was committed spend/higher paid nurses doctors and so forth plus bigger benefits - there is no tangible thing to show for if apart from them having earned more so had a better quality and standard of living they they were due.

[Rick_1138]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-po...

The irony isn't just irony, this is nationalist irony!

I cant wait till our new glorious overlords come into power.....destiny was documentary right, I mean I can go live on Venus with no other person there....yes?

[Efbe]

///ajd said:

XJS, have a read of this:

---

1. Just because a party has a specific policy doesn't make it deliverable or affordable. The SNP could offer everyone a free Ferrari in their 2016 Manifesto, but that doesn't make it deliverable. You can't just say "ah but the English could vote for free Ferraris too if they wanted". It is not fair to simply start spending more per head in one area without either consequences or taxing them more.


2. I've realised that the funding of free uni education has a delayed action on budgets. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but the following example may apply. I'll ignore inflation and use easy numbers (not correct, but the maths is easier and shows the principle) :-

i) assume Uni places cost £10Bn a year in UK in 2014. Assume Scotland has 10% of popluation and 10% of students in HE. Hence Scotland contributes £1Bn and gets £1Bn spent on students. rUK contributes £9Bn and gets £9Bn spent on students. Ignore the Barnett bonus for a minute.

ii) Now, the subtlety here is that in both Scotland AND rUK - the government fully funds all Uni to the tune of £10Bn. Everyone gets free education. The difference is that in the rUK, £9Bn is loaned, whereas in Scotland £1Bn is given for free.

iii) This means that, e.g. in 5-10 years, perhaps upto 50% of the £9Bn spent in the rUK in 2025 will be funded by the students of today (2015) paying back their loans. In Scotland none of that £1Bn will be funded by students.

iv) If the rUK can rely on 50% of uni funding in the future (2025) coming from todays students, it can cut back tax based spending by 50%. I.e. the rUK taxpayer would spend only £4.5Bn on education in 2025, with the other £4.5Bn coming from the graduates in jobs earning over £25k or whatever the threshold is. Now 10% of that £4.5Bn taxpayer spend for Scotland would see the Scot Govt with only £450k to fund a £1Bn bill to provide free uni for all. In other words more than £550k would need to be found from other priorities.

I hope that is how it is planned to work, and that NO english student loan money goes into funding Scottish Uni funding. So the SNP are effectively already "borrowing" for future generations - and giving that money to millionaires.

The current SG policy looks unsustainable and a short term vote winning policy that will bite hard in years to come.

It will be interesting to see how the Nats manage to decide this funding black hole will be "Westminsters fault".

---

How do you propose to fill this funding hole? What will you cut spending on? Or how much will your raise taxes?
Any sort of plan? Or just blame westminster?
Can you see - popular though it is - how short sighted the free uni policy actually is?

it is incredibly amusing on this forum how hypocritical (not meaning you ajd) the politics section is.

On the one hand the SNP is ridiculed, whilst on the other the UKIP is applauded.

On one hand (mostly the same) people talk of how SNP politicians couldn't do any better a job that the British Government, and the other hand how pathetic and useless the current British Government is.

[PRTVR]

Efbe said:

///ajd said:

XJS, have a read of this:

---

1. Just because a party has a specific policy doesn't make it deliverable or affordable. The SNP could offer everyone a free Ferrari in their 2016 Manifesto, but that doesn't make it deliverable. You can't just say "ah but the English could vote for free Ferraris too if they wanted". It is not fair to simply start spending more per head in one area without either consequences or taxing them more.


2. I've realised that the funding of free uni education has a delayed action on budgets. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but the following example may apply. I'll ignore inflation and use easy numbers (not correct, but the maths is easier and shows the principle) :-

i) assume Uni places cost £10Bn a year in UK in 2014. Assume Scotland has 10% of popluation and 10% of students in HE. Hence Scotland contributes £1Bn and gets £1Bn spent on students. rUK contributes £9Bn and gets £9Bn spent on students. Ignore the Barnett bonus for a minute.

ii) Now, the subtlety here is that in both Scotland AND rUK - the government fully funds all Uni to the tune of £10Bn. Everyone gets free education. The difference is that in the rUK, £9Bn is loaned, whereas in Scotland £1Bn is given for free.

iii) This means that, e.g. in 5-10 years, perhaps upto 50% of the £9Bn spent in the rUK in 2025 will be funded by the students of today (2015) paying back their loans. In Scotland none of that £1Bn will be funded by students.

iv) If the rUK can rely on 50% of uni funding in the future (2025) coming from todays students, it can cut back tax based spending by 50%. I.e. the rUK taxpayer would spend only £4.5Bn on education in 2025, with the other £4.5Bn coming from the graduates in jobs earning over £25k or whatever the threshold is. Now 10% of that £4.5Bn taxpayer spend for Scotland would see the Scot Govt with only £450k to fund a £1Bn bill to provide free uni for all. In other words more than £550k would need to be found from other priorities.

I hope that is how it is planned to work, and that NO english student loan money goes into funding Scottish Uni funding. So the SNP are effectively already "borrowing" for future generations - and giving that money to millionaires.

The current SG policy looks unsustainable and a short term vote winning policy that will bite hard in years to come.

It will be interesting to see how the Nats manage to decide this funding black hole will be "Westminsters fault".

---

How do you propose to fill this funding hole? What will you cut spending on? Or how much will your raise taxes?
Any sort of plan? Or just blame westminster?
Can you see - popular though it is - how short sighted the free uni policy actually is?

it is incredibly amusing on this forum how hypocritical (not meaning you ajd) the politics section is.

On the one hand the SNP is ridiculed, whilst on the other the UKIP is applauded.

On one hand (mostly the same) people talk of how SNP politicians couldn't do any better a job that the British Government, and the other hand how pathetic and useless the current British Government is.

There is a big difference, Scotland has been part of the UK for a long time, disentangling it all would be expensive, we have been part of the EU for only a short time,the costs evolved would be minimal,I have no problem with Scottish independence, but if they won't it the should pay for it, all of it, Trident relocation, the lot, if its that important to them it is a small price to pay.

Then there is the small matter of the lack of democracy in the EU but in Scotland you have your own Parliament, with different laws,I do struggle to understand the need for independence for Scotland, the conclusion I have come to is that at its hart is the old hatred of the English and as such will never go away.

[AstonZagato]

Rick_1138 said:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-po...

The irony isn't just irony, this is nationalist irony!

I cant wait till our new glorious overlords come into power.....destiny was documentary right, I mean I can go live on Venus with no other person there....yes?

The odious little man can't help but expose his own naked ambition and thirst for power. Having failed to change the rules to favour his own self-advancement, he tries a different game. The goal is the same - a power-trip for Salmond and screw the consequences for everyone else.

[simoid]

I don't know what I'm going to do on the EU front, but I know that whilst there are some parallels, there are huge and glaringly obvious differences between the scenarios.

I see it perfectly possible to want Scotland in the UK and out of the EU, but find it much harder to equate an independent Scotland with EU membership, mind.

But that's old hat now