Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6

[Strocky]

Sway said:

So the proposed local allocation of a portion of tax revenue is the same as the Norwegian style oil fund that nats were harping on about creating?


You know, the one where instead of licensing private companies, they have a state oil company, and all profits go into to fund. As opposed to selling off licenses, taxing the profits, then giving a percentage to local authorities.

The fracking local tax allocation seems remarkably similar to the end result of the Barnett Formula...

I don't have an issue with raising tax as/above, but where I do have an issue is the way the revenue has been distributed

Especially when council budgets have mainly been frozen or slashed (unless you live in the SE)

Regarding wether the UK or Norwegian model has been the most effective

Well one country is scraping by paying the interest on the debt every year while wages are not keeping up in line with inflation while running an austerity plan with no sign of ending anytime soon, while another country can make every citizen a millionaire overnight and has a standard of living that puts the other country (the 4th most unequal country in Europe) to shame

Now which country sounds more appealing to you?

[Strocky]

Troubleatmill said:

Oh crap! Another accusation on BBC bias against Salmond.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/analysis/30363...










"What’s so great about Lewis Hamilton? He can drive a car? I convinced 1.6 million people that we could force a foreign country to let us use their currency. Now, that’s an achievement.”

You better stay off the Onion website, your mind would be blown

[Strocky]

OpulentBob said:

Strocky said:

I've already said I'd be happy to pay extra tax for a fairer society

YOU might be, but YOU don't speak for the rest of the 37%. Just like YOU don't speak for the people of Scotland. Who voted "No", in case you forgot?

Gold star for pointing out the obvious

I was asked directly about me, not anyone else, but thanks for playing

Btw it was 45/55% unless your happy for the Unionsts to be the 45

Edited by Strocky on Monday 29th December 12:42

[Troubleatmill]

Strocky said:

Troubleatmill said:

Oh crap! Another accusation on BBC bias against Salmond.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/analysis/30363...










"What’s so great about Lewis Hamilton? He can drive a car? I convinced 1.6 million people that we could force a foreign country to let us use their currency. Now, that’s an achievement.”

You better stay off the Onion website, your mind would be blown

Doubt it... read it for years fella.
Merry Christmas - and a prosperous united New Year.


Edit. Care to comment on why Swinney didn't make the financial compelling case for Scotland?
If it was a good news story - then a YES vote would have been a landslide.

[///ajd]

Strocky said:

///ajd said:

barryrs said:

Also what's wrong with the bonus payment, we know newspapers are far from impartial.

Is it true a Sunday Herald editor was offered a £60k bung to support a Yes vote?
And payment was to come from some charity named after someones mum?
Sounds preposterous....

PS good banter on the "independence but sharing all the good stuff" wiggle, the white paper really was the omnishambles of lame.

Edited by ///ajd on Sunday 28th December 23:23

I hope you've got better lawyers than Private Eye

Should be obvious it is just a joke? Why, did it sound plausible to you?

[NoNeed]

The more I hear from NATS the more I think they are idiots, and the more I think they are idiots the more they seem to do to convince me they are idiots.


I can't think of many topics where I don't start to feel some sort of understanding of the other persons point of view after hundreds of pages spread across 6 volumes. I think the whole idea is more stupid now than it ever was just because I would want these people trying to take care of themselves.


They need us, they really do but like those in a lunatic asylum they have no idea they do.

[McWigglebum4th]

Strocky said:

I've already said I'd be happy to pay extra tax for a fairer society,

Strange

As i was called and english for suggesting that to get the SNP proposed spending as per the ste paper would involve tax increases

Does this mean you are also an english ?

Strocky said:

Why do you think Scotland couldn't be successfully independent?

it could be

quite easily

Just not the high spending, low tax left wing utiopia i was being sold

[Troubleatmill]

Awaiting Strocky's answer to Swinney not publishing a compelling case for a successful Scotland.

Puts the kettle on.

[toppstuff]

Strocky said:

Why do you think Scotland couldn't be successfully independent?

Edited by Strocky on Monday 29th December 12:22

I too think Scotland could be a successful independent country.

But here is my problem - there is NO way on earth or heaven that Scotland would EVER be a successful independent nation in the way the SNP have described.

The SNP have lied about the public finances., obfuscated over the truth concerning the deficit, deflected from answering sensible questions.

The single most impressive thing the SNP have achieved is persuading a significant minority that the REAL and GENUINE problems concerning independence are all just "Scaremongering".

I hear the phrase "Scaremongering" all the time from Nats and it does my head in. It is not "scaremongering". It is TRUTH.

Anyway, back to my opening line - YES , Scotland COULD be a successful independent country.

But this is the TRUTH of the matter - an independent Scotland would only be successful after SACRIFICE and HARDSHIP. The day the SNP accepts this truth and is honest with the people of Scotland about the hardships they will have to endure to achieve successful independence, is the day they deserve the support.

The independence campaign was a shameful exercise in leading people on with cries of "scaremongering", deceiving millions of people.

Tell the truth.

Describe the hardships.

Describe the sacrifices.

THEN ask people to vote for independence. If the people vote Yes after this, then good luck to them all. But don't lie to the Scottish people, don't deceive them with promises of living in Narnia where no-one suffers and no one loses their job. It just isn't true and will never be true.

Independence could be fantastic. But it would hurt a lot first. Yes supporters have to be honest about that. Until they do, they are all deluded fools.

[Edinburger]

Troubleatmill said:

Man who does not live in Scotland,
or work in Scotland,
or would pay any form on tax in iScotland,
or be affected in any way by the success or failure of Government
- gets wheeled out by SNP to encourage electorate to vote for Independence.

Marvellous.

At least it wasn't Sean Connery.

Agreed - this sort of PR is counter-productive as it shows a lack of resources and annoys so many people.

[Edinburger]

McWigglebum4th said:

Troubleatmill said:

Man who does not live in Scotland,
or work in Scotland,
or would pay any form on tax in iScotland,
or be affected in any way by the success or failure of Government
- gets wheeled out by SNP to encourage electorate to vote for Independence.

Marvellous.

At least it wasn't Sean Connery.

Where as those in exactly the same situation who preferred scotland to stay in the UK have been told to fk off out of scotlands business and have got death threats on twitter


Watch topgear last night?

Saw the rock throwing idiots in Argentinian?

Exactly the same folk here in Scotland

Honestly, are you being serious?! Please explain how they're "exactly the same folk here in Scotland"?

You really are in your own wee world.

[Edinburger]

Funk said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Troubleatmill said:

Man who does not live in Scotland,
or work in Scotland,
or would pay any form on tax in iScotland,
or be affected in any way by the success or failure of Government
- gets wheeled out by SNP to encourage electorate to vote for Independence.

Marvellous.

At least it wasn't Sean Connery.

Where as those in exactly the same situation who preferred scotland to stay in the UK have been told to fk off out of scotlands business and have got death threats on twitter


Watch topgear last night?

Saw the rock throwing idiots in Argentinian?

Exactly the same folk here in Scotland

That's because, as per the article I linked to a few posts up, Nats have decided they're 'right' and as such 'dissenters' can be written out of the picture as not being 'true Scots'.

There's some fascinating psychology at play which is why I asked Strocky whether he knows he's wrong but fights anyway or whether he's genuinely drunk the Kool Aid and believes what he's saying.

The irony is that the true Scots are the ones who recognised what's best for Scotland and voted in its best interests - namely to stay in the union.

The current oil price alone would've nuked Scotland's budgets even before it was fully independent (and as per your post earlier, the phrase 'fully independent' should be taken with a pinch of salt!).

To be fair, it's a bit naiive to assume all "Nats" are the same. Or even similar. Sadly, it's the bell-end Nats who make the headlines and make the noise.

[Edinburger]

Troubleatmill said:

Oh crap! Another accusation on BBC bias against Salmond.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/analysis/30363...

Spoof?








"What’s so great about Lewis Hamilton? He can drive a car? I convinced 1.6 million people that we could force a foreign country to let us use their currency. Now, that’s an achievement.”

[Edinburger]

Strocky said:

Sway said:

So the proposed local allocation of a portion of tax revenue is the same as the Norwegian style oil fund that nats were harping on about creating?


You know, the one where instead of licensing private companies, they have a state oil company, and all profits go into to fund. As opposed to selling off licenses, taxing the profits, then giving a percentage to local authorities.

The fracking local tax allocation seems remarkably similar to the end result of the Barnett Formula...

I don't have an issue with raising tax as/above, but where I do have an issue is the way the revenue has been distributed

Especially when council budgets have mainly been frozen or slashed (unless you live in the SE)

Regarding wether the UK or Norwegian model has been the most effective

Well one country is scraping by paying the interest on the debt every year while wages are not keeping up in line with inflation while running an austerity plan with no sign of ending anytime soon, while another country can make every citizen a millionaire overnight and has a standard of living that puts the other country (the 4th most unequal country in Europe) to shame

Now which country sounds more appealing to you?

In Scotland, the reason that council budgets have been frozen or slashed is because of the SNP's pledge to freeze council tax. That is one area, in my view, where the SNP are wrong. And this is now creating big issues with council budgets and revenues and funding for education. One of my friend's daughters schools is about to reduce to 4.5 day weeks.

They should change that pledge to say council tax won't increase more than, say, RPI +1%. Freezing it is plain stupid and anyone can see that.

[Edinburger]

NoNeed said:

The more I hear from NATS the more I think they are idiots, and the more I think they are idiots the more they seem to do to convince me they are idiots.


I can't think of many topics where I don't start to feel some sort of understanding of the other persons point of view after hundreds of pages spread across 6 volumes. I think the whole idea is more stupid now than it ever was just because I would want these people trying to take care of themselves.


They need us, they really do but like those in a lunatic asylum they have no idea they do.

<sigh> more generalising....

[toppstuff]

Edinburger said:

NoNeed said:

The more I hear from NATS the more I think they are idiots, and the more I think they are idiots the more they seem to do to convince me they are idiots.


I can't think of many topics where I don't start to feel some sort of understanding of the other persons point of view after hundreds of pages spread across 6 volumes. I think the whole idea is more stupid now than it ever was just because I would want these people trying to take care of themselves.


They need us, they really do but like those in a lunatic asylum they have no idea they do.

<sigh> more generalising....

In fairness, mass delusion and idiocy can look the same.

It is hard to argue that the SNP did not tell the truth, did not come clean about the tough times and the sacrifices that would be needed. Instead they persuaded a doe-eyed, unquestioning minority that any hint of the problems ahead was just "scaremongering". Surely, only lunatics would believe in fairy tales? Only lunatics would truly believe that there would be no hardship before things got any better?

[Edinburger]

toppstuff said:

Strocky said:

Why do you think Scotland couldn't be successfully independent?

Edited by Strocky on Monday 29th December 12:22

I too think Scotland could be a successful independent country.

But here is my problem - there is NO way on earth or heaven that Scotland would EVER be a successful independent nation in the way the SNP have described.

The SNP have lied about the public finances., obfuscated over the truth concerning the deficit, deflected from answering sensible questions.

The single most impressive thing the SNP have achieved is persuading a significant minority that the REAL and GENUINE problems concerning independence are all just "Scaremongering".

I hear the phrase "Scaremongering" all the time from Nats and it does my head in. It is not "scaremongering". It is TRUTH.

Anyway, back to my opening line - YES , Scotland COULD be a successful independent country.

But this is the TRUTH of the matter - an independent Scotland would only be successful after SACRIFICE and HARDSHIP. The day the SNP accepts this truth and is honest with the people of Scotland about the hardships they will have to endure to achieve successful independence, is the day they deserve the support.

The independence campaign was a shameful exercise in leading people on with cries of "scaremongering", deceiving millions of people.

Tell the truth.

Describe the hardships.

Describe the sacrifices.

THEN ask people to vote for independence. If the people vote Yes after this, then good luck to them all. But don't lie to the Scottish people, don't deceive them with promises of living in Narnia where no-one suffers and no one loses their job. It just isn't true and will never be true.

Independence could be fantastic. But it would hurt a lot first. Yes supporters have to be honest about that. Until they do, they are all deluded fools.

You talk a lot of sense there.

In the run up to the referendum, I waived several times between Yes and No and eventually decided on No. For many reasons including those you posted above. I shared my thoughts on here at that time and as far as I could see, it was the Yes campaign who lost it because of the ommissions, the flaws and the mistakes in their plans.

[Mojocvh]

Edinburger said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Troubleatmill said:

Man who does not live in Scotland,
or work in Scotland,
or would pay any form on tax in iScotland,
or be affected in any way by the success or failure of Government
- gets wheeled out by SNP to encourage electorate to vote for Independence.

Marvellous.

At least it wasn't Sean Connery.

Where as those in exactly the same situation who preferred scotland to stay in the UK have been told to fk off out of scotlands business and have got death threats on twitter


Watch topgear last night?

Saw the rock throwing idiots in Argentinian?

Exactly the same folk here in Scotland

Honestly, are you being serious?! Please explain how they're "exactly the same folk here in Scotland"?

You really are in your own wee world.

Ironic post of the week award goes to.......

[Edinburger]

Mojocvh said:

Edinburger said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Troubleatmill said:

Man who does not live in Scotland,
or work in Scotland,
or would pay any form on tax in iScotland,
or be affected in any way by the success or failure of Government
- gets wheeled out by SNP to encourage electorate to vote for Independence.

Marvellous.

At least it wasn't Sean Connery.

Where as those in exactly the same situation who preferred scotland to stay in the UK have been told to fk off out of scotlands business and have got death threats on twitter


Watch topgear last night?

Saw the rock throwing idiots in Argentinian?

Exactly the same folk here in Scotland

Honestly, are you being serious?! Please explain how they're "exactly the same folk here in Scotland"?

You really are in your own wee world.

Ironic post of the week award goes to.......

Nope, no irony there from me.

[Edinburger]

See: SNP 'right to talk' about influencing future UK government

Potentially an interesting time for UK politics but as Professor John Curtice said, doesn't this promote the cause of English devolution and a federal UK?