Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6

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Edinburger said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Edinburger said:

Does Mr Kipling make Werther's Originals?

You are doing that nationalist thing of ignoring the main point and looking at details


Try and be better then those idiots

Unless you are one of those idiots

I know you tend to sit more on one side of the fence than the other, despite voting No, but would you actually describe yourself as a "Nationalist" burger?

If so, what does being a "Nationalist" mean to you? What is it that is important about being a "Nationalist"?

[Strocky]

spitsfire said:

I have no interest in playing nationalist narcissist top trumps, I'm simply pointing out the fallacy of many of the Nationalist arguments about the immorality of the UK and the unblemished record of the Scots. With reference to your point about it being over 30 years ago, do you think the Nats should still be defending the document's author?

Nationalists seem, by and large, not to properly understand our history: When the Declaration of Arbroath is reverentially mentioned as a foundation stone of democracy, they fail to acknowledge it was top-level management demanding a seat at the Directors' table, not a call for democracy or 'freedom' for the common man: When the '45 is mentioned, they talk of Scots fighting for freedom, when it was actually a bitter sectarian power struggle between Catholic clansmen trying to put a monarch with absolute power on the throne and Anglican/Presbyterian lowlanders trying to prevent a repeat of the wholesale slaughter of non-catholics under Bloody Mary et al.

Nationalists also don't understand international and constitutional law ( It's Scotland's Pound too), economics, European Law, but yet claim to be the best guardians of Scotland and it's laws.

Often, when these historical and factual inaccuracies are pointed out to a dedicated Nat, they ignore it and divert to self-righteous attacks on the UK or persons within the UK with the underlying smug implication that 'we're better than those bds'.

With such a dense mix of historical revisionism, wilful ignorance, and aggressive self-righteousness, it is very difficult to have a proper debate about the subject.

You need look no further than the previous five volumes of this thread for evidence, but plenty of other sources are also available.

Nope I was merely pointing put "people in glass houses........"

My argument is the current system is broken and not fit for purpose, not that Scottish history is blemish free or we're better (The Masonic influence in Scotland is a major issue that needs to be addressed)

The "blog" you've linked to just seems to be a public schoolboy seeing how many facist references he can shoehorn into the one article and doesn't have one direct (or even indirect) link to the current SNP hierarchy condoning the opinion of one man from 1939

[Strocky]

AstonZagato said:

True. It's a form of racism. It boils down to "we're better than you".

Absolute bks, it boils down to wanting to forge a different path and standing on your own two feet as an independent country

The racism card is a lazy (and ironic) argument

Edited by Strocky on Saturday 28th March 02:45

[Strocky]

simoid said:

Perhaps not racist as we are the same race. What might the equivalent for nations be..?

Nationalist?

I always recall Salmond challenging the UKPM to "come up here and argue against Scotland" or words to that effect. As if you must either be on Scotland's side or the UK side. Disgusting.

If words to that effect = lies, then yes I agree

[Strocky]

spitsfire said:

simoid said:

And I suppose Scotland would end up with nae pals to play with in the end.

Half way there already - How many big-league politicians from outside the UK have been willing to do a photo call with Salmond or Sturgeon?

The Scottish Exec are desperate to try and get some international recognition, but they have an amazing ability to piss everybody off: From the US Senate to the US President to the The EU Commission, they have an uncanny knack of offending the people we'd need to keep onside if we were to become an independent country.

Even the French, who usually revel in an opportunity to make the UK Government twitchy, wouldn't hold 'unofficial official' meetings (ie scheduled, but with nobody of note officially attending) with them, despite various discreet approaches in Brussels and public references to the Auld Alliance. Their only friends are.... wait for it.... the other fringe separatist parties that the movers and shakers loathe.

We'd be sitting between Zimbabwe and Nauru at the diplomatic drinks parties: the very definition of outside the tent pissing in.

Oh no an IS would never be kept as a lapdog of the Yanks or be in the "sphere of influence"

It's like a Yes Minister Christmas special, vestiges of empire and mocking the uneducated brutes of the 3rd world

[Strocky]

spitsfire said:

arp1 said:

Wiggles, I don't have the link for it but interesting article in the telegraph, and there was a poll asking if a labour-Snp government has a right to govern... Why wouldn't they have a right to?

No party or individual has a 'right' to govern; the people have a right to be governed by the government they've voted for, as defined by the constitutional framework, norms, and rules.

It might sound like pendantry, but it's actually quite important.

Can you point out the Con/Dem coalition option on the last GE ballot paper?

[Strocky]

McWigglebum4th said:

It is worse then they aren't a UK wide party

They are a party dedicated to destroying and discrediting the UK at every chance they get


Can you imagine an SNP foreign minister representing the UK?

Wouldn't happen and won't happen so you can stop being hysterical Wiggles

[Strocky]

Rollin said:

Of course you are. If not, why do you need your own parliament?

Because there was a democratic vote and the democratic majority of Scotland voted for one (after the UK government offered a vote thinking that it would kill Independence stone dead)

[Strocky]

McWigglebum4th said:

Why should we have a separate parliment but the north of england doesn't?

Because the overwhelming majority voted against it

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_England_de...

[spitsfire]

Strocky said:

Nope I was merely pointing put "people in glass houses........"

How very true. Glad you've come round to my way of thinking.

Strocky said:

My argument is the current system is broken and not fit for purpose, not that Scottish history is blemish free or we're better (The Masonic influence in Scotland is a major issue that needs to be addressed)

By that logic, if your house were to have a leak in the roof and need rewired, you'd be doing a bit of this

Strocky said:

The "blog" you've linked to just seems to be a public schoolboy seeing how many facist references he can shoehorn into the one article and doesn't have one direct (or even indirect) link to the current SNP hierarchy condoning the opinion of one man from 1939

It's from The Scotsman. Nat High Command did put out a press statement at the time calling it a smear and abuse of libel law to defame a dead man, but it seems to gave disappeared from the site. However, you can still find Eddi Whinger's laughably daft complaint to the PCC about the Klan Alba article on the PCC website. Here's a link to a NatRage site's reporting on it and the PCC's invitation to the 'Respected Scottish musician' (she was in a band that had one hit FFS) to take a long walk on a short pier.

[spitsfire]

Strocky said:

Oh no an IS would never be kept as a lapdog of the Yanks or be in the "sphere of influence"

It's like a Yes Minister Christmas special, vestiges of empire and mocking the uneducated brutes of the 3rd world

See previous about being inside the tent. International affairs and diplomacy is about pragmatism, allegiances and interests.

Idealism doesn't work at the best of times, let alone if you go to the UN representing 0.0007% of the global population and don't have any allies. The Dalai Lama's oft quoted saying, ''If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito' doesn't consider how the story ends for the mosquito: I'll use a picture to illustrate:

I don't want to run the risk of our country ending in a flash of blue light from a Russian submarine. Like it or not (and I am emphatically not keen on nuclear weapons) I'd rather keep a small insurance policy

ETA: I can't even be bothered to engage with the faux-ignorance of your Con Dem bks

Edited by spitsfire on Saturday 28th March 03:38

[McWigglebum4th]

Strocky said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Why should we have a separate parliment but the north of england doesn't?

Because the overwhelming majority voted against it

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_England_de...

And who says the north of england is stupid?

[Welshbeef]

Strocky said:

Nope I was merely pointing put "people in glass houses........"

My argument is the current system is broken and not fit for purpose, not that Scottish history is blemish free or we're better (The Masonic influence in Scotland is a major issue that needs to be addressed)

The "blog" you've linked to just seems to be a public schoolboy seeing how many facist references he can shoehorn into the one article and doesn't have one direct (or even indirect) link to the current SNP hierarchy condoning the opinion of one man from 1939

What's broken?

I'd agree the welsh assembly Holyrood etc are an utter waste of time and money and poorly represent the people of those regions of the UK.

We have a great system c600 MPs elected based upon the same number of constituents for each MP. Their voice is heard as an equal in Westmjnster to pass laws and vote so that overall the settled will of the UK people is reflected.

[AstonZagato]

Strocky said:

AstonZagato said:

True. It's a form of racism. It boils down to "we're better than you".

Absolute bks, it boils down to wanting to forge a different path and standing on your own two feet as an independent country

The racism card is a lazy (and ironic) argument

You'll be saying "some of my best friends are English" next.

If it is about "forging a different path" then you'd be campaigning for reform of the Houses or Parliament.

If it was about " standing on your own two feet" then you'd be campaigning for a Scottish Groat (not keeping the Pound) and exit from the EU. The Nats did neither.

[McWigglebum4th]

AstonZagato said:

Strocky said:

AstonZagato said:

True. It's a form of racism. It boils down to "we're better than you".

Absolute bks, it boils down to wanting to forge a different path and standing on your own two feet as an independent country

The racism card is a lazy (and ironic) argument

You'll be saying "some of my best friends are English" next.

If it is about "forging a different path" then you'd be campaigning for reform of the Houses or Parliament.

If it was about " standing on your own two feet" then you'd be campaigning for a Scottish Groat (not keeping the Pound) and exit from the EU. The Nats did neither.

Yeah independence

Which is why the SNP guaranteed we would be able to watch the BBC and we would get all the UK shipbuildings contracts

Anyone saying we wouldn't be sharing the pound was scare mongering

We would never be out of the EU

We would share the DVLA

etc and so on

[Edinburger]

AstonZagato said:

You'll be saying "some of my best friends are English" next.

Is that a dig at me, Aston?

I recall you sarcastically mocking when I said I work in London a lot.

Well, the truth is my wife, our kids, all if her family, many of my friends, and virtually all of my colleagues are English. And yes, I am in London for at least one day most weeks and in other regions of England, Northern Ireland and occasionally Wales regularly too.

I travel a lot within the UK with work. Travel broadens the mind

Sorry to spoil your theory.

[McWigglebum4th]

Edinburger said:

Is that a dig at me, Aston?

I recall you sarcastically mocking when I said I work in London a lot.

Well, the truth is my wife, our kids, all if her family, many of my friends, and virtually all of my colleagues are English. And yes, I am in London for at least one day most weeks and in other regions of England, Northern Ireland and occasionally Wales regularly too.

I travel a lot within the UK with work. Travel broadens the mind

Sorry to spoil your theory.

And in these travels

Have you noticed a fundamental difference between the english and scottish?

[AstonZagato]

Edinburger said:

AstonZagato said:

You'll be saying "some of my best friends are English" next.

Is that a dig at me, Aston?

I recall you sarcastically mocking when I said I work in London a lot.

Well, the truth is my wife, our kids, all if her family, many of my friends, and virtually all of my colleagues are English. And yes, I am in London for at least one day most weeks and in other regions of England, Northern Ireland and occasionally Wales regularly too.

I travel a lot within the UK with work. Travel broadens the mind

Sorry to spoil your theory.

As it was a reply to Strocky, no.

I don't recall mocking you for saying that you work in London much of the time. I'm sure you do. It's one of the benefits of this wonderful Union

[Edinburger]

McWigglebum4th said:

And in these travels

Have you noticed a fundamental difference between the english and scottish?

Depends on your definition of "difference". Of course there are differences between people in different areas.

[Edinburger]

AstonZagato said:

As it was a reply to Strocky, no.

I don't recall mocking you for saying that you work in London much of the time. I'm sure you do. It's one of the benefits of this wonderful Union

Okay cool