Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6

[technodup]

McWigglebum4th said:

Yeah independence

Which is why the SNP guaranteed we would be able to watch the BBC and we would get all the UK shipbuildings contracts

Anyone saying we wouldn't be sharing the pound was scare mongering

We would never be out of the EU

We would share the DVLA

etc and so on

This^^.

A bit of honesty wouldn't go amiss from the Yes side. The proposal was not independence to anyone of sane mind. All the good, none of the bad, same currency, no hard decisions, Westminster sharing anything they wanted, smooth transition into the EU, no mention of increased taxes to pay for anything etc etc. All pish.

If they'd said it'll be hard for ten years, we'll have to do X, Y and Z and it will affect the economy, we'll have to raise taxes by X but we'll come through it and prosper I'd have more respect for them. I'd still disagree, but at least there would have been a proper choice.

As it was (and still is) it's bla bla bla, little fluffy clouds in the sky. The prospect of the fat toad playing king at Westminster is truly disturbing. In England? VOTE TORY.

[Strocky]

AstonZagato said:

You'll be saying "some of my best friends are English" next.

If it is about "forging a different path" then you'd be campaigning for reform of the Houses or Parliament.

If it was about " standing on your own two feet" then you'd be campaigning for a Scottish Groat (not keeping the Pound) and exit from the EU. The Nats did neither.

I do hope you aren't accusing me of being racist, if you can point out evidence to the contrary then I'm all ears, so kindly put up or shut up, there's a good lad

The SNP have campaigned to disband the unelected HoL

Using the £ (that we have a 10% share off) was a sop to the bed wetters that fancied independence but don't like change

Regarding the EU dig are you suggesting no country that is part of the EU is truly independent?

[HenryJM]

McWigglebum4th said:

And who says the north of england is stupid?

The north of England is the same as the UK generally, too much government. We have local councils that do next to damn all and are voted for by hardly anyone, going up into district, regional whatever they all call themselves. Hardly anyone votes, hardly any cares, the last we need is more of it. (I remember a cartoon of people at the top of a hill saying 'from this height I can see five levels of government')

The UK generally should have local, regional and National, each deciding the things that effect them. We used to be having 8 regional assemblies in England, they should be alongside ones for Scotland, Wales and NI, each governing the local issues for their part of the country each with roughly the same population of 5 or 6 million. Then the National Parliament governs issues that are national.

It's not hard, people would understand it, and it should work - but of course it's far to simple, logical and sensible for anyone in government to go for it, particularly in Scotland. After all, what happened in 1603 or whenever? So important...

[AstonZagato]

Strocky said:

AstonZagato said:

You'll be saying "some of my best friends are English" next.

If it is about "forging a different path" then you'd be campaigning for reform of the Houses or Parliament.

If it was about " standing on your own two feet" then you'd be campaigning for a Scottish Groat (not keeping the Pound) and exit from the EU. The Nats did neither.

I do hope you aren't accusing me of being racist, if you can point out evidence to the contrary then I'm all ears, so kindly put up or shut up, there's a good lad

The SNP have campaigned to disband the unelected HoL

Using the £ (that we have a 10% share off) was a sop to the bed wetters that fancied independence but don't like change

Regarding the EU dig are you suggesting no country that is part of the EU is truly independent?

Where have I said you specifically are racist?

What I'm saying is that Nationalism has, deep down at its heart, a misguided sense of moral and ethical superiority that borders on racism: "Scots should govern Scots because, well, we are better". There's lots of claptrap about "colonial past" and "illegal wars". But once you start dissecting the arguments, they don't stand up. They are moral outrage used to cover the fundamental distrust of decisions made others from the same island - which in turn suggests a fundamental distrust of others from the same island who have a different accent.

There is also a fundamental anti-democratic element. The " we don't get the government that we vote for" is code for "I didn't get the government I voted for and therefore want to gerrymander to try to change that because I don't agree with the majority". Which is why the Nats don't give a stuff about the settled will of the Scottish people and the economic pain that continuing to argue openly for independence.

[McWigglebum4th]

Strocky said:

Using the £ (that we have a 10% share off) was a sop to the bed wetters that fancied independence but don't like change

Regarding the EU dig are you suggesting no country that is part of the EU is truly independent?

So the claims we would use the pound was a lie

And how can you be truly independent when brussels sets your laws?

[DocJock]

Strocky said:

Rollin said:

Of course you are. If not, why do you need your own parliament?

Because there was a democratic vote and the democratic majority of Scotland voted for one (after the UK government offered a vote thinking that it would kill Independence stone dead)

Small point but you can't make that claim, in the same way no-one can claim the majority voted to keep the union in 2014.

In the 1997 referendum there was a majority of the turnout who voted for the parliament. The turnout was only 60-odd percent so the fact is only ~45% of the electorate voted 'yes' and only 40% voted 'yes' to Q2.

Irrelevant to the outcome, as rightly only used ballots can count, but nobody can say how the non-voting 40% would have been split.

[McWigglebum4th]

AstonZagato said:

Where have I said you specifically are racist?

What I'm saying is that Nationalism has, deep down at its heart, a misguided sense of moral and ethical superiority that borders on racism: "Scots should govern Scots because, well, we are better". There's lots of claptrap about "colonial past" and "illegal wars". But once you start dissecting the arguments, they don't stand up. They are moral outrage used to cover the fundamental distrust of decisions made others from the same island - which in turn suggests a fundamental distrust of others from the same island who have a different accent.

Don't forget if you voted NO you are perfectly okay with baby raping, illegal wars, food banks, bankers and privatising the NHS


But it isn't claiming moral superiority

NO NO NO

[AstonZagato]

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

[McWigglebum4th]

Edinburger said:

McWigglebum4th said:

And in these travels

Have you noticed a fundamental difference between the english and scottish?

Depends on your definition of "difference". Of course there are differences between people in different areas.

Is there?

Latest research shows we aren't that different

Would you like to supply you a link



or would you prefer to discuss sweeties?

[Edinburger]

McWigglebum4th said:

Is there?

Latest research shows we aren't that different

Would you like to supply you a link



or would you prefer to discuss sweeties?

Sorry, Wiggley. We obviously went to different schools. Are you saying:

A) Would you like me to supply you with a link?

Or

B) Would you like to supply a link?

Confused in Edinburgh.

[McWigglebum4th]

When you join the SNP

Do you have to sign a pledge that you will never knowingly answer a question?

[///ajd]

Edinburger said:

AstonZagato said:

You'll be saying "some of my best friends are English" next.

Is that a dig at me, Aston?

I recall you sarcastically mocking when I said I work in London a lot.

Well, the truth is my wife, our kids, all if her family, many of my friends, and virtually all of my colleagues are English. And yes, I am in London for at least one day most weeks and in other regions of England, Northern Ireland and occasionally Wales regularly too.

I travel a lot within the UK with work. Travel broadens the mind

Sorry to spoil your theory.

Would you describe yourself as a Nationalist Edinburger?

[McWigglebum4th]

Open question to nationalists

How will your life be better once you have broken away from the control of Westminster?


Do you expect higher dole?

Less taxes?

More freedom?

[Gogoplata]

McWigglebum4th said:

Strocky said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Why should we have a separate parliment but the north of england doesn't?

Because the overwhelming majority voted against it

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_England_de...

And who says the north of england is stupid?

^This.During the Scottish independence campaign various news organisations interviewed people on the street of Newcastle (who obviously weren't at work) where they exclaimed outrage that the North should have the same because of evil Westminister, bankers, Londoners etc.

Now at the time most people thought that an extra layer of government was a waste of money and not needed which is true. But it makes me wonder how much of this is down to the financial crash that happened a few years later as people seem to have changed their mind. Had the financial crash not happened would people still not care about regional governments/independence etc?

[General Price]

Dundee Courier said:

Sir, – I am increasingly concerned about the behaviour and attitude of First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. She would appear to have forgotten, or chosen to ignore, the result of the referendum, when the Scottish people voted decisively to say “no” to independence.

Her duty, as First Minister, is to honour and respect that decision, and while she is entitled to seek more, devolved powers for the Scottish Parliament, she is not entitled to continue to blatantly challenge the referendum decision and make demands of Westminster relative to matters which the people of Scotland agreed, by their vote, should remain devolved.

Ms Sturgeon’s repeated visits south to “lecture” the English, Welsh and Northern Irish as to how they should behave; how they should conduct their affairs; and make strident “demands” as to what she will require to support continuing government in Westminster. is very concerning.

Her behaviour and attitude that the SNP will hold the “balance of power” after the next election, and will only support further legislation if the rest of the United Kingdom meets the SNP’s “requirements” displays a breathtaking arrogance and lack of judgement.

I am as fervent a Scot as any but Nicola Sturgeon is doing us great damage and will alienate our English, Welsh and Northern Irish friends very quickly if she continues with this strident attitude.

Common sense surely tells us that we, the Scottish people, are much better and more secure if we remain as one United Kingdom.

Do we — yet again — want the continuing spectre of no longer being a part of the United Kingdom; no longer entitled to a British passport; having to apply to become a member of the European Union; risking losing our Scottish naval shipbuilding contracts to England; losing thousands of jobs at Faslane and the whole Helensburgh area and possibly Leuchars as a major military base; thinking we can realistically “go it alone” in the North Sea with a collapsed oil price?

It is time it was made clear to our First Minister that her ambitions have no place in Scottish politics. The referendum vote showed that.

Hamish Carlton.
Gowrie Cottage,
Dunkeld.

Obviously a Tory.

[Edinburger]

General Price said:

Obviously a Tory.

Mr Carlton makes a lot of good points.

[McWigglebum4th]

Edinburger said:

Mr Carlton makes a lot of good points.

But when i make similar points you ask about sweeties

care to disagree with his point that the SNP are hammering away on the wedge as hard as they can

[Welshbeef]

So sturgeon has given a speech today and the hard red lines for a coalition with labour are
No trident
No austerity and vast increase in spend
Much more powers to Scotland


Um kind of means it will not happen.

[McWigglebum4th]

Welshbeef said:

So sturgeon has given a speech today and the hard red lines for a coalition with labour are
No trident
No austerity and vast increase in spend
Much more powers to Scotland


Um kind of means it will not happen.

2 possibilities

1 they are delusional idiots who believe they will get everything they wish for

2 They want to make labour unelectable so they can scream tory oppression




It is 1 isn't it

[simoid]

Strocky said:

simoid said:

Perhaps not racist as we are the same race. What might the equivalent for nations be..?

Nationalist?

I always recall Salmond challenging the UKPM to "come up here and argue against Scotland" or words to that effect. As if you must either be on Scotland's side or the UK side. Disgusting.

If words to that effect = lies, then yes I agree

"He said this would give the Prime Minister the opportunity to “articulate a case against Scotland”, while he would make the opposing argument for independence."

Taken from "Alex Salmond wants David Cameron to make 'anti-Scottish' case in TV debate"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10...

Lies?