Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6

[Edinburger]

Sway said:

It's not tough st if it's illegal evasion, and even if it's lawful avoidance there's a strong whiff of hypocrisy.

Not exactly an obvious or straightforward route to minimising your liabilities is it?

I work in financial services and I think it's far to say that the whole industry has struggled to an extent with agreeing where the line between tax avoidance / tax evasion lies.

Whoever is in power needs to clearly define this with zero ambiguity because this topic is making too many headlines with threats of legal action, prison, etc., against those who assist or do "it".

At the momentm, tax avoidance is normally legal although it can easily and unwittingly turn into tax evasion which is illegal.

[Einion Yrth]

Edinburger said:

tax avoidance is normally legal although it can easily and unwittingly turn into tax evasion which is illegal.

Unwittingly? Is there no "mens rea" test of financial impropriety?

[simoid]

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

arp1 said:

Ah well at least it's not an expenses scandal or child molesting ring....

Or wife beating. SNP voters in Fife voted for domestic violence, didn't they?

I don't suppose you'd like to apologise for calling me a liar now, would you?

Perhaps I've missed something but why do you suggest that SNP voters in Fife voted for domestic violence?

It was in response to an ill-judged previous comment by arp1 regarding unionists and paedophiles. Dunfermline voted for someone who was later convicted of domestic violence - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Walker_(Scotti...

[simoid]

Edinburger said:

That depends on how you define 'nationalist'.

If you mean do I think that the people of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland deserve political self-determination then yes - and I think that should be acheived by increased devolved powers.

Do I think that Scotland (or any other component country of the UK) should be ir would be better off independent? That answer is No.

Does that help?

Looks to me like you are indeed a nationalist.

There's no such thing as political self determination if you're part of larger entities such as the UK and EU.

Many nationalists don't think Scotland will be better off, but they don't GAF as they value Scotland being an independent country.

[simoid]

Edinburger said:

The inference being thay are unemployed / lazy? Really??

Would you say there's a direct correlation between ability and willingness to work, and employment?

[McWigglebum4th]

Edinburger said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Edinburger said:

Mr Carlton makes a lot of good points.

But when i make similar points you ask about sweeties

care to disagree with his point that the SNP are hammering away on the wedge as hard as they can

You're joking about sweets, right?

You tell me

Edinburger said:

Do you eat Werther's Originals?

Edinburger said:

Does Mr Kipling make Werther's Originals?

As you have the sweetie obsession

Edinburger said:

What do you mean "hammering away on the wedge as hard as they can"?

What else would you call banging on constantly how they will be king makers and they will call all the shots and there is nothing the english can do

The SNP only care about breaking up the union

[Einion Yrth]

McWigglebum4th said:

The SNP only care about breaking up the union

It looks to me that there are other things the SNP cares about; but they're even uglier.

[Edinburger]

Einion Yrth said:

Edinburger said:

tax avoidance is normally legal although it can easily and unwittingly turn into tax evasion which is illegal.

Unwittingly? Is there no "mens rea" test of financial impropriety?

Exactly - both tax evasion and tax avoidance are non-compliance with the different tax laws.

Mens rea defines the intent to break a law, right? The act is not culpable unless the mind had intent and is guilty?

So why do people use ISAs? Why do people invest in pensions? Why do people rely on financial advisers, accountants, etc., to mitigate their tax liabilities?

It is easy for anyone to wittingly or unwittingly both avoid and, on occasion, evade tax.

[Edinburger]

simoid said:

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

arp1 said:

Ah well at least it's not an expenses scandal or child molesting ring....

Or wife beating. SNP voters in Fife voted for domestic violence, didn't they?

I don't suppose you'd like to apologise for calling me a liar now, would you?

Perhaps I've missed something but why do you suggest that SNP voters in Fife voted for domestic violence?

It was in response to an ill-judged previous comment by arp1 regarding unionists and paedophiles. Dunfermline voted for someone who was later convicted of domestic violence - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Walker_(Scotti...

Oh, okay.

[Edinburger]

simoid said:

Edinburger said:

The inference being thay are unemployed / lazy? Really??

Would you say there's a direct correlation between ability and willingness to work, and employment?

Would you say it's possible that those people work shifts? Or were on holiday that day? Or work part time?

[Edinburger]

McWigglebum4th said:

Edinburger said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Edinburger said:

Mr Carlton makes a lot of good points.

But when i make similar points you ask about sweeties

care to disagree with his point that the SNP are hammering away on the wedge as hard as they can

You're joking about sweets, right?

You tell me

Edinburger said:

Do you eat Werther's Originals?

Edinburger said:

Does Mr Kipling make Werther's Originals?

As you have the sweetie obsession

Edinburger said:

What do you mean "hammering away on the wedge as hard as they can"?

What else would you call banging on constantly how they will be king makers and they will call all the shots and there is nothing the english can do

The SNP only care about breaking up the union

Wiggley, you and I have quite different views on the world.

That is all.

[Edinburger]

simoid said:

Edinburger said:

That depends on how you define 'nationalist'.

If you mean do I think that the people of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland deserve political self-determination then yes - and I think that should be acheived by increased devolved powers.

Do I think that Scotland (or any other component country of the UK) should be ir would be better off independent? That answer is No.

Does that help?

Looks to me like you are indeed a nationalist.

There's no such thing as political self determination if you're part of larger entities such as the UK and EU.

Many nationalists don't think Scotland will be better off, but they don't GAF as they value Scotland being an independent country.

Not sure. A federal political system achieves an element of self-determination.

Let's say S, E, W & NI have devolved parliaments running all laws, finance, taxation, services, etc., everything apart from say defence and international relations.

Is that a bad thing? It delivers security as well as (limited) self-determination.

[Sway]

Edinburger said:

I work in financial services and I think it's far to say that the whole industry has struggled to an extent with agreeing where the line between tax avoidance / tax evasion lies.

Whoever is in power needs to clearly define this with zero ambiguity because this topic is making too many headlines with threats of legal action, prison, etc., against those who assist or do "it".

At the momentm, tax avoidance is normally legal although it can easily and unwittingly turn into tax evasion which is illegal.

I've also done my time in financial services, and what's clear is that the line is very clear, it's just not able to be determined prior to a 'scheme' being used...

Ultimately, you are free to read the tax code, and come up with methods that use the letter of the code to reduce the level of taxation paid. If you do this, in many circumstances it's required that you notify HMRC. They can then look at the approach and pass judgement. The judgement comes effectively in three forms - carry on, legal avoidance. Stop now, but as it's a new judgement what you've done before is relatively ok but carry on and you're in trouble (usually accompanied by an amendment such as IR35). Or stop now, and you're going to court as what you're doing isn't even remotely within the framework of the code.

The circumstances regarding the news article falls into the timeline where it's been reported to HMRC who are preparing their judgement. They as usual will work on the basis of is it reasonable and is it purely designed to reduce tax liability. In this instance, I'd expect them to decree it as being evasion. Shell companies with no other purpose and transfer of assets/loans are usually pretty frowned upon.

Outside all that, is the rhetoric that both Labour and the SNP have been going on about for the last five years - that legal avoidance is immoral. Of course it isn't, as it's perfectly legal, and there's no need to pay more tax than you're required.

The hypocrisy is strong when two parties decrying avoidance as immoral have engaged at best in avoidance, and more likely in evasion...

[simoid]

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

Edinburger said:

The inference being thay are unemployed / lazy? Really??

Would you say there's a direct correlation between ability and willingness to work, and employment?

Would you say it's possible that those people work shifts? Or were on holiday that day? Or work part time?

All of the above are of course perfectly possible and plausible

[spitsfire]

Sway said:

Outside all that, is the rhetoric that both Labour and the SNP have been going on about for the last five years - that legal avoidance is immoral. Of course it isn't, as it's perfectly legal, and there's no need to pay more tax than you're required.

Whilst I agree with your wider point, I'd be careful about equating what is legal with what is ethical; Big Tobacco springs to mind as a particularly obvious example...

[simoid]

Edinburger said:

Not sure. A federal political system achieves an element of self-determination.

Let's say S, E, W & NI have devolved parliaments running all laws, finance, taxation, services, etc., everything apart from say defence and international relations.

Is that a bad thing? It delivers security as well as (limited) self-determination.

Well, there's definite downsides when it causes divisions between the various populations in and throughout the nations. As far as I can see - nobody in politics wants Scotland to decrease spending. Where does the money come from?

If we have total responsibility for money in and out, what happens when there's peaks and troughs in income from the different countries? You start fking about with the very fabric of why the UK is so successful as an economy and entity if you lose the ability to transfer wealth from those with an ability to pay and a need for spending. As you note - we don't even fully know how much wealth is transferred to Scotland from the rUK at present.

A big, well managed pot of income split on a needs basis trumps various smaller less stable pots.

What you seem to want is independence with a UK passport and army. All the benefits and risks of independence, without the things that nationalists want at heart. I think that's the worst possible outcome.

[Sway]

Edinburger said:

Exactly - both tax evasion and tax avoidance are non-compliance with the different tax laws.

Substantively not true. Avoidance is complying with the rules, however doing things differently so a different rule applies...

The joys of the largest and most complicated tax code in the world!

Being a director of a limited company as opposed to being self employed means a different set of rules apply, with the usual effect that you pay less tax. That's fine for both the individual and the company, and HMRC - who get a lot more information out of you to scan for irregularities!

[Ecosseven]

Edinburger said:

simoid said:

Edinburger said:

That depends on how you define 'nationalist'.

If you mean do I think that the people of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland deserve political self-determination then yes - and I think that should be acheived by increased devolved powers.

Do I think that Scotland (or any other component country of the UK) should be ir would be better off independent? That answer is No.

Does that help?

Looks to me like you are indeed a nationalist.

There's no such thing as political self determination if you're part of larger entities such as the UK and EU.

Many nationalists don't think Scotland will be better off, but they don't GAF as they value Scotland being an independent country.

Not sure. A federal political system achieves an element of self-determination.

Let's say S, E, W & NI have devolved parliaments running all laws, finance, taxation, services, etc., everything apart from say defence and international relations.

Is that a bad thing? It delivers security as well as (limited) self-determination.

I'm no economics expert but surely if we are using the same currency in a currency union then central Government needs to retain overall control of spending and taxes within certain boundaries? If too many powers get devolved then is it possible that each Government will get bigger (at a greater cost to the taxpayer) and the risks to the stability of the currency also get bigger due to each Government having potentially very different views on how the country should be run?

Edited by Ecosseven on Monday 30th March 12:27

[simoid]

Ecosseven said:

I'm no economics expert but surely if we are using the same currency in a currency union then central Government needs to retain overall control of spending and taxes within certain boundaries? If too many powers get devolved then is it possible that each Government will get bigger (at a greater cost to the taxpayer) and the risks to the stability of the currency also get bigger due to each Government having potential very different views on how the country should be run?

Indeed - exactly why the Eurozone is a fkup.

In the UK we have what might be the perfect example of a multinational currency arrangement. I suspect we forget how lucky we are with our Scottish parliament spending for us. But then again - we voted to stay in the UK so perhaps we do.

[McWigglebum4th]

simoid said:

I suspect we forget how lucky we are with our Scottish parliament spending for us.

Yep i thank my lucky stars every morning that £800K was spent on the white paper instead of giving us a connection to the mains water

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10415927/...


And i am not taking the piss

Mains water tastes like bleach and the pressure is st