Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6

[McWigglebum4th]

Strocky said:

If the Unionist bed wetters can take their tinfoil caps off long enough to realise I'm fairly visible online since the days of AOL dial up, Christ I was "outed" by a couple of Hifiwigwam posters months ago on this very thread, then they might stop embarrassing themselves publically for the whole of the WWW to see

Paranoia and delusions of supremacy ain't a good look

I agree he isn't viperprick

Viperprick is a muscle bound penis obsessed feckwit who injects himself with all manners of chemicals, who hates the rich (despite being rich himself) and belives he will be the king of scotland due to his warrior skills as he is the true choosen one who counts fish. He is also a football obsessed grammar Nazi


Stroppy is just yet another content free nationalist victimcard waving cybernat who comes here out of his own free will

On reflection Stroppy is one of the few nationalists who admit it is SNP policy to make scotland hated by the english and to drive big business and wealth away from scotland so they can get their freedom

He is almost worth some respect

Well as much as you can respect a victimcard waving cocksock

Edited by McWigglebum4th on Wednesday 15th April 07:32

[simoid]

Strocky said:

If the Unionist bed wetters can take their tinfoil caps off long enough to realise I'm fairly visible online since the days of AOL dial up, Christ I was "outed" by a couple of Hifiwigwam posters months ago on this very thread, then they might stop embarrassing themselves publically for the whole of the WWW to see

Paranoia and delusions of supremacy ain't a good look

Clearly you are here for a windup, there's plenty of sensible discussion around if you want to find it. Yet you end many of your posts with insults and one liners.

[Strocky]

simoid said:

Strocky said:

If the Unionist bed wetters can take their tinfoil caps off long enough to realise I'm fairly visible online since the days of AOL dial up, Christ I was "outed" by a couple of Hifiwigwam posters months ago on this very thread, then they might stop embarrassing themselves publically for the whole of the WWW to see

Paranoia and delusions of supremacy ain't a good look

Clearly you are here for a windup, there's plenty of sensible discussion around if you want to find it. Yet you end many of your posts with insults and one liners.

I initially joined up as I was looking to find a recommended garage that could service my car and also look at what car I should go for next, as all my questions were answered already there was no point starting a new thread in General, I started browsing around and came across this topic

As it seemed to me as mainly a thread that was weighted towards Unionists having a circle jerk wk (and being of the Nationalist bent) I decided to join in the "banter"

Now some of my posting is windup and some of it isn't (mainly it's a way to kill time at work during quiet spells) and I generally gear my posting style/response to the tone of the thread/forum/replies

I would argue that I'm "abused" as much as I "abuse" (within acceptable limits)

I get the impression that the feeling of some on this thread is that they don't want a debate, just a thread where a group can vent about how deluded Nats are and how crap the SNP are at running Scotland without any counterargument or POV, IMO that's not healthy on ANY forum

Feel free to report any of my posts if they offend and if the mods deem me to break the house rules they'll deal with me accordingly

[Strocky]

McWigglebum4th said:

I agree he isn't viperprick

Viperprick is a muscle bound penis obsessed feckwit who injects himself with all manners of chemicals, who hates the rich (despite being rich himself) and belives he will be the king of scotland due to his warrior skills as he is the true choosen one who counts fish. He is also a football obsessed grammar Nazi


Stroppy is just yet another content free nationalist victimcard waving cybernat who comes here out of his own free will

On reflection Stroppy is one of the few nationalists who admit it is SNP policy to make scotland hated by the english and to drive big business and wealth away from scotland so they can get their freedom

He is almost worth some respect

Well as much as you can respect a victimcard waving cocksock

Edited by McWigglebum4th on Wednesday 15th April 07:32

Thanks Wiggles, I'm overcome by emulsion

Incidentally was Viper from the Loch Lomond area, I drove by a Blue/White Striped Viper at Luss last week on the way up to Inverary?

[Big Rod]

Strocky said:

Thanks Wiggles, I'm overcome by emulsion

Incidentally was Viper from the Loch Lomond area, I drove by a Blue/White Striped Viper at Luss last week on the way up to Inverary?

Did you take the high road or did he?

I think his was blue with two diagonal white stripes intersecting on the roof.

(Seriously, IIRC it was white with a blue stripe.)

[McWigglebum4th]

Strocky said:

As it seemed to me as mainly a thread that was weighted towards Unionists having a circle jerk wk (and being of the Nationalist bent) I decided to join in the "banter"

WRONG

Most are english who want scotland to fk off to get rid of the deeply destructive SNP and the politics of envy and hate the spew

I am scottish and i am deeply against independence due to the content free arguments and the politics and envy the SNP spout.

Listening to idiots like you and that fat arse Salmond turned me from a YES to a NO fking way am i hanging around to watch scotland get bled dry by hate filled victim card aholes

Strocky said:

I get the impression that the feeling of some on this thread is that they don't want a debate, just a thread where a group can vent about how deluded Nats are and how crap the SNP are at running Scotland without any counterargument or POV, IMO that's not healthy on ANY forum

The SNP are st

They are one of the most authoritarian governments in europe

they fk up constantly and blame the english for everything


If you could give some healthy arguments then fine

But you can't


You lot never could

You have brains full of secret oil fields and conspiracies


Anything shown to you from those in authority or positions of knowledge was screamed as scaremongering

The SNP ask the EU about the position after independence and they reply was new country = new member application and you screamed the EU was scaremongering or biased against scotland


The pound. Five years ago it was a terrible thing weighing scotland down as it was controlled by the bd english and we could only prosper if we joined the euro. during the referendum it was the pound is wonderful as it is controlled by the bd english


There is and was more holes in your argument then a rusty pasta strainer

[Ridgemont]

Strocky said:

<snip>

As it seemed to me as mainly a thread that was weighted towards Unionists having a circle jerk wk (and being of the Nationalist bent) I decided to join in the "banter"

Now some of my posting is windup and some of it isn't (mainly it's a way to kill time at work during quiet spells) and I generally gear my posting style/response to the tone of the thread/forum/replies

I would argue that I'm "abused" as much as I "abuse" (within acceptable limits)

I get the impression that the feeling of some on this thread is that they don't want a debate, just a thread where a group can vent about how deluded Nats are and how crap the SNP are at running Scotland without any counterargument or POV, IMO that's not healthy on ANY forum

Feel free to report any of my posts if they offend and if the mods deem me to break the house rules they'll deal with me accordingly

I'll bite..

I think it might be worth you reading some of the earlier volumes for the context of where the thread is at (if you have a spare day or two )

This thread has over 6 volumes, and well in advance of the ref, participants deconstructed the independence arguments. Sure the weighting of the individuals was largely unionist, but there was a set of vocal nats (Fluff, Edinburger, Viperpict etc).

What became clear very early on was just how poor much of the thinking behind the indy movement was. To take examples:

1) Europe - little or no thought had been given to the implication of exiting the union on Scotland's status. Almost any meaningful authority, not part of the indy campaign, were in agreement. To exit the union was to exit the EU. End of. Yet frustratingly this was ignored, then pooh-poohed. This approach was to become something of a recurring patern.

2) Currency - likewise the implications of Scotland's choice of currency (Euro>Pound>Groat) was just pushed to one side. The obvious solution was the Euro. See item 1. The nats only solution was the groat as currency share with rUK was never going to happen (see item 3). To be fair to a couple of the nats on here, the groat was their preferred solution. This was obviously a recipe for poverty but at least they were intellectually consistent re independence. The fact that the SNP weren't caused no little hilarity on this forum.

3) 'are we independent yet?'. In fact what the SNP were proposing was not independence. By retaining the Queen, seats on the BoE, BBC access, and potentially having to sign off their budgets with the rUK gov because of the shared currency etc what Salmond was offering was not independence. This was pointed out over and over again, to which the response from the nats in thread was 'it's a start'.

4) lots of other examples of what appeared to be flakey thinking (cf the contracts for the new destroyers that Salmond kept on maintaining would be built in Scotland despite this being a breach of the EU rules on competition, arguments of share of debt, etc etc).

The thread spent much time asking these questions, not getting answers, and scratching it's head on how on earth this was happening given the logic vacuum.

The publication of the white paper only accentuated the disbelief and hilarity. We'd assumed that Salmond had answers to the above. It turns out he didn't. The thread had a field day. Forward wind to the ref itself. All of the things we'd been ripping into for years bubbled up and frankly holed the campaign. To be clear many scots would have voted for yes if the above questions had been answered. They weren't and the indy crowd lost. No surprises there.

What shocked us all however was that
1) the Yes campaign managed to attract such traction despite the manifest flaws. And when I say manifest, you would have to be stark raving mad to have ignored the massive implications in the way that the Yes campaign did.

2) the utter vitriol and monomania of some of the Yes crowd. As a microcosm of the rUK it left us all feeling deflated and pretty bitter. There were some pretty nasty exchanges at various points on thread resulting in a couple of bans.

3) this hasn't gone away.. despite the fact the referendum was last September and we were told this would be settled for a generation.

So the unionists on this thread are merely representing the thoughts of many in the rUK.
i.e.
Oh why don't you all just fk off.
Please.

[Ridgemont]

An example of the pointlessness of arguing with the nationalists;

we noted umpteen times in thread that the GERs from the SG indicated that the SNP's sums did not add up.. but nooooooo. All is rainbows, lollipops and unicorns..

well...

http://www.capx.co/socialist-scotland-is-sleepwalk...

And more importantly; http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/explainin... on which the article largely draws.

[Edinburger]

Ridgemont said:

An example of the pointlessness of arguing with the nationalists;

we noted umpteen times in thread that the GERs from the SG indicated that the SNP's sums did not add up.. but nooooooo. All is rainbows, lollipops and unicorns..

well...

http://www.capx.co/socialist-scotland-is-sleepwalk...

And more importantly; http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/explainin... on which the article largely draws.

And Gerald Warner doing what he does best - causing offence and creating hysteria.

Apart from quoting him, those were two fair posts.

[Welshbeef]

Ridgemont said:

An example of the pointlessness of arguing with the nationalists;

we noted umpteen times in thread that the GERs from the SG indicated that the SNP's sums did not add up.. but nooooooo. All is rainbows, lollipops and unicorns..

well...

http://www.capx.co/socialist-scotland-is-sleepwalk...

And more importantly; http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/explainin... on which the article largely draws.

It's funny isn't it the SNP latched onto the 2011/12 data as it fitted their arguement. However when the 2012/13 data came it was literally LOL ignored and rubbished as it opposed the SNP point. Roll onto 2013/14 makes it even worse and as we all know oil price has plummeted so 2014/15 will be even worse from the SNPs perspective.



So why didn't the SNP rubbish GERS earlier data as they did the more recent? To not do so totally removed any credibility you have and frankly unless your at pre school you'd find it tricky to convince anyone.
But they did. hOW? Was it simply a warning shot over the bow or was it actually very different

[///ajd]

Interesting graph.

The bars only have to be above the dotted line for Scotland to be better off without the Barnett.

So many lies. So many sheep.

[Funk]

///ajd said:

Interesting graph.

The bars only have to be above the dotted line for Scotland to be better off without the Barnett.

So many lies. So many sheep.

Christ, that paints a stark reality doesn't it...!

[simoid]

Edinburger said:

And Gerald Warner doing what he does best - causing offence and creating hysteria.

Apart from quoting him, those were two fair posts.

With which parts of his article did you disagree?

[Ian974]

I had initinally been ok with the concept of an independent Scotland, but it just didn't make sense to me for what was trying to be achieved.
An independent Scotland.
But keeping the pound.
Keeping the NHS as it is.
And EU membership.
And duplicating every already operating government service that would be needed.

So it would be going through an enormously costly and risky process in order to change, by the look of things, pretty much nothing.

No-one could agree on whether money actually goes from Scotland to RUK, or RUK to Scotland. But more importantly, whatever way it actually goes, does it really matter enough to risk an entire country on it?
I struggle with the concept that its OK to spend tax raised in Aberdeen on services in Glasgow for example, but its wrong if it was to be spent in say Newcastle, or Manchester. Or the other way round, with tax raised in Manchester being spent in Glasgow.

[simoid]

It does rather seem that us Scots get money from the UK pot not because we need it, but because we've had a political party solely devoted to getting it for us.

What's the UKIP plan for Scottish spending? Do they want to scrap the barnet formula and give us "full fiscal autonomy"? (Genuine question) Surely they're right up the same street as the SNP on that front...

[spitsfire]

simoid said:

It does rather seem that us Scots get money from the UK pot not because we need it, but because we've had a political party solely devoted to getting it for us.

What's the UKIP plan for Scottish spending? Do they want to scrap the barnet formula and give us "full fiscal autonomy"? (Genuine question) Surely they're right up the same street as the SNP on that front...

I don't think UKIP really have a plan for that. If they do, it will be what sounds best, rather than what is viable.

My suspicion is that Labour, Tories, and Lib Dems have all experienced sitting in 'the hot seat', and are consequently more cautious of making commitments that could come back to haunt them on spending and tax.

The smaller/newer parties, who've never had to grind their way through international treaty negotiations, EU summits, debt financing, or budget reviews have a romanticised view of what is possible: They've never had to stand behind a podium hearing shouts of 'liars', 'broken promises', etc and try to explain that, even with the best intentions, their plans and promises weren't realistic.

Hence why the three parties who've been in Government are pretty cautious about tax and spending commitments, whereas the Nats, Greens and UKIP are promising stuff that they'd not be able to deliver; the electoral system means that they won't get called out on it.

[BlackLabel]

Supporters of Scottish autonomy are against English autonomy.

[Welshbeef]

simoid said:

It does rather seem that us Scots get money from the UK pot not because we need it, but because we've had a political party solely devoted to getting it for us.

What's the UKIP plan for Scottish spending? Do they want to scrap the barnet formula and give us "full fiscal autonomy"? (Genuine question) Surely they're right up the same street as the SNP on that front...

UKIP manifesto States scrapping Barnett - so you have to assume they get full fiscal autonomy.


Actually he wants to spend more too
In fact excl trident there really is very little difference between UKIP & SNP manifestos.




Actually if SNP supporters actually would read the UKIP manifesto they might actually encourage some people in marginal seats to vote for them as it would help the SNP manifesto to be delivered.



Tory's seem to have sneaked in England fiscal autonomy in too and got to it to stop Scotland MPs voting on England only matters. If they have full fiscal autonomy then hey have no right at all to vote on England laws and vice versa which has been the case for decades. Yet SanP crowing the evil Tory's making Scottish MPs 2nd class.... Um what? The Tory's moving towards the Fedral setup of the USA.

[mcdjl]

BlackLabel said:

Supporters of Scottish autonomy are against English autonomy.

English votes for welsh laws too by the look of that.

[Welshbeef]

BlackLabel said:

Supporters of Scottish autonomy are against English autonomy.

Have to ask if it's a tax or a law strictly raised or a statute in England (Scotland will have full fiscal autonomy) why on earth do Pro Yes or Scottish Labour supporters think this is a bad thing? Surely it's utterly logical and sensible else you could have a bizarre situation whereby a Scottish MP votes for tax cuts ion Scotland but helps force through tax rises in England on he same issue.