Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
Welshbeef said:
Have to ask if it's a tax or a law strictly raised or a statute in England (Scotland will have full fiscal autonomy) why on earth do Pro Yes or Scottish Labour supporters think this is a bad thing? Surely it's utterly logical and sensible else you could have a bizarre situation whereby a Scottish MP votes for tax cuts ion Scotland but helps force through tax rises in England on he same issue.
It is almost as if they want power and control over the english more then they want to benefit scotlandNationalist don't want success for scotland
They want revenge
As in 1537 an english b
d passed wind in front of some from scotland and DIDN'T apologizeAnd for this ALL ENGLISH PEOPLE MUST DIE
McWigglebum4th said:
Welshbeef said:
Have to ask if it's a tax or a law strictly raised or a statute in England (Scotland will have full fiscal autonomy) why on earth do Pro Yes or Scottish Labour supporters think this is a bad thing? Surely it's utterly logical and sensible else you could have a bizarre situation whereby a Scottish MP votes for tax cuts ion Scotland but helps force through tax rises in England on he same issue.
It is almost as if they want power and control over the english more then they want to benefit scotlandNationalist don't want success for scotland
They want revenge
As in 1537 an english b
d passed wind in front of some from scotland and DIDN'T apologizeAnd for this ALL ENGLISH PEOPLE MUST DIE
Welshbeef said:
So you could have situations where by the settled will of England is to do X but then with the additional Scottish MPs voting on it could push it to Y or prevent it happening. Yet that cannot happen in reverse?
"The settled will of England" since when has any such thing ever existed? Everyone always thinks and agrees the same thing? Really?You mean like they did on tuition fees?
They don't want that blocked as it'll limit their ability to great divisive, victim card, statements in Holyrood and the press...
"Look at those bds in Wastemonster, forcing students to pay for their degrees if they actually benefit from them. Evil bds. We'll vote for that, all helps the cause."
They don't want that blocked as it'll limit their ability to great divisive, victim card, statements in Holyrood and the press...
"Look at those b
ds in Wastemonster, forcing students to pay for their degrees if they actually benefit from them. Evil bds. We'll vote for that, all helps the cause."Sway said:
You mean like they did on tuition fees?
They don't want that blocked as it'll limit their ability to great divisive, victim card, statements in Holyrood and the press...
"Look at those bds in Wastemonster, forcing students to pay for their degrees if they actually benefit from them. Evil bds. We'll vote for that, all helps the cause."
Did the SNP actually vote FOR rUK to have tuition fees while voting for and giving ZERO tuition fees in Scotland?They don't want that blocked as it'll limit their ability to great divisive, victim card, statements in Holyrood and the press...
"Look at those b
ds in Wastemonster, forcing students to pay for their degrees if they actually benefit from them. Evil bds. We'll vote for that, all helps the cause."Welshbeef said:
Sway said:
You mean like they did on tuition fees?
They don't want that blocked as it'll limit their ability to great divisive, victim card, statements in Holyrood and the press...
"Look at those bds in Wastemonster, forcing students to pay for their degrees if they actually benefit from them. Evil bds. We'll vote for that, all helps the cause."
Did the SNP actually vote FOR rUK to have tuition fees while voting for and giving ZERO tuition fees in Scotland?They don't want that blocked as it'll limit their ability to great divisive, victim card, statements in Holyrood and the press...
"Look at those b
ds in Wastemonster, forcing students to pay for their degrees if they actually benefit from them. Evil bds. We'll vote for that, all helps the cause."qUITE ENLIGHTENING
HenryJM said:
"The settled will of England" since when has any such thing ever existed? Everyone always thinks and agrees the same thing? Really?
That's not what the settled will is though - it's what democracy chooses and I assume Beefy used the phrase as it was a favourite of the SNP.Welshbeef said:
Sway said:
You mean like they did on tuition fees?
They don't want that blocked as it'll limit their ability to great divisive, victim card, statements in Holyrood and the press...
"Look at those bds in Wastemonster, forcing students to pay for their degrees if they actually benefit from them. Evil bds. We'll vote for that, all helps the cause."
Did the SNP actually vote FOR rUK to have tuition fees while voting for and giving ZERO tuition fees in Scotland?They don't want that blocked as it'll limit their ability to great divisive, victim card, statements in Holyrood and the press...
"Look at those b
ds in Wastemonster, forcing students to pay for their degrees if they actually benefit from them. Evil bds. We'll vote for that, all helps the cause."Tam Dalyell must be laughing his head off.
NoNeed said:
Lol brilliant She is going to get gang banged tonight on this -- rightly so.
To become Independant would only take 18 months from Sept last year so so 13 months away now... Yet full fiscal autonomy could take years.... Hmm SNP lies
Ridgemo:Dnt said:
I'll bite..
I think it might be worth you reading some of the earlier volumes for the context of where the thread is at (if you have a spare day or two
)
This thread has over 6 volumes, and well in advance of the ref, participants deconstructed the independence arguments. Sure the weighting of the individuals was largely unionist, but there was a set of vocal nats (Fluff, Edinburger, Viperpict etc).
1) Europe - little or no thought had been given to the implication of exiting the union on Scotland's status. Almost any meaningful authority, not part of the indy campaign, were in agreement. To exit the union was to exit the EU. End of. Yet frustratingly this was ignored, then pooh-poohed. This approach was to become something of a recurring patern.
The thread spent much time asking these questions, not getting answers, and scratching it's head on how on earth this was happening given the logic vacuum.
The publication of the white paper only accentuated the disbelief and hilarity. We'd assumed that Salmond had answers to the above. It turns out he didn't. The thread had a field day. Forward wind to the ref itself. All of the things we'd been ripping into for years bubbled up and frankly holed the campaign. To be clear many scots would have voted for yes if the above questions had been answered. They weren't and the indy crowd lost. No surprises there.
1) the Yes campaign managed to attract such traction despite the manifest flaws. And when I say manifest, you would have to be stark raving mad to have ignored the massive implications in the way that the Yes campaign did.
2) the utter vitriol and monomania of some of the Yes crowd. As a microcosm of the rUK it left us all feeling deflated and pretty bitter. There were some pretty nasty exchanges at various points on thread resulting in a couple of bans.
3) this hasn't gone away.. despite the fact the referendum was last September and we were told this would be settled for a generation.
So the unionists on this thread are merely representing the thoughts of many in the rUK.
i.e.
Oh why don't you all just fk off.
Please.
Thanks for the reply, some decent points even though I disagree with most of them and a very English polite fI think it might be worth you reading some of the earlier volumes for the context of where the thread is at (if you have a spare day or two
)This thread has over 6 volumes, and well in advance of the ref, participants deconstructed the independence arguments. Sure the weighting of the individuals was largely unionist, but there was a set of vocal nats (Fluff, Edinburger, Viperpict etc).
strocky said:
Might have a read over the weekend to see if there were any road to Domestos conversions or if it played out similarly to how it currently runs
What became clear very early on was just how poor much of the thinking behind the indy movement was. To take examples:1) Europe - little or no thought had been given to the implication of exiting the union on Scotland's status. Almost any meaningful authority, not part of the indy campaign, were in agreement. To exit the union was to exit the EU. End of. Yet frustratingly this was ignored, then pooh-poohed. This approach was to become something of a recurring patern.
strocky said:
Yep it was a bit of a mess of contradictory quotes, letters and each side taking what they wanted out of anything of substance. What would have killed it stone dead was the UK government formally asking the EU the definitive question, they didn't (for whatever reason) therefore it was left to be an ambiguous mess.
2) Currency - likewise the implications of Scotland's choice of currency (Euro>Pound>Groat) was just pushed to one side. The obvious solution was the Euro. See item 1. The nats only solution was the groat as currency share with rUK was never going to happen (see item 3). To be fair to a couple of the nats on here, the groat was their preferred solution. This was obviously a recipe for poverty but at least they were intellectually consistent re independence. The fact that the SNP weren't caused no little hilarity on this forum.strocky said:
Currency became a political football during the referendum, both sides dug in (rUK said no CU, YES said then no debt share, rUK countered try getting a loan then, iS said debt free country would have banks happy to lend) an IS would have a currency that could be traded internationally, wether it was pegged or in a currency union would have been determined by the negotiations after the referendum
3) 'are we independent yet?'. In fact what the SNP were proposing was not independence. By retaining the Queen, seats on the BoE, BBC access, and potentially having to sign off their budgets with the rUK gov because of the shared currency etc what Salmond was offering was not independence. This was pointed out over and over again, to which the response from the nats in thread was 'it's a start'. strocky] [b said:
I agree, however people are generally risk adverse, especially those that have a good lifestyle and don't struggle, it would have been political suicide for YES to argue that we should get rid of the Queen from day dot.
The BoE / Budget scenario would have been part of the deal for CU and a necessary pill for an iS to swallow if the rUK was agreeable.
The BBC argument was a nonsense (BBC & Eire happily have a commercial contract for access rights) and tbf anyone who voted NO on the basis of not getting to watch Eastenders was a moron and should have had their vote taken off them. [/b]
4) lots of other examples of what appeared to be flakey thinking (cf the contracts for the new destroyers that Salmond kept on maintaining would be built in Scotland despite this being a breach of the EU rules on competition, arguments of share of debt, etc etc).The BoE / Budget scenario would have been part of the deal for CU and a necessary pill for an iS to swallow if the rUK was agreeable.
The BBC argument was a nonsense (BBC & Eire happily have a commercial contract for access rights) and tbf anyone who voted NO on the basis of not getting to watch Eastenders was a moron and should have had their vote taken off them. [/b]
The thread spent much time asking these questions, not getting answers, and scratching it's head on how on earth this was happening given the logic vacuum.
The publication of the white paper only accentuated the disbelief and hilarity. We'd assumed that Salmond had answers to the above. It turns out he didn't. The thread had a field day. Forward wind to the ref itself. All of the things we'd been ripping into for years bubbled up and frankly holed the campaign. To be clear many scots would have voted for yes if the above questions had been answered. They weren't and the indy crowd lost. No surprises there.
strocky] [b said:
I find it hard to believe that every one of the 1.6m people that voted YES did so in the light of YES not answering ONE single question to counteract the NO campaign as you are suggesting
BOTH sides were equally guilty of bending the truth and used stats and arguments to colour their own version of the truth, I'm not buying this one way street you're peddling [/b]
What shocked us all however was thatBOTH sides were equally guilty of bending the truth and used stats and arguments to colour their own version of the truth, I'm not buying this one way street you're peddling [/b]
1) the Yes campaign managed to attract such traction despite the manifest flaws. And when I say manifest, you would have to be stark raving mad to have ignored the massive implications in the way that the Yes campaign did.
2) the utter vitriol and monomania of some of the Yes crowd. As a microcosm of the rUK it left us all feeling deflated and pretty bitter. There were some pretty nasty exchanges at various points on thread resulting in a couple of bans.
3) this hasn't gone away.. despite the fact the referendum was last September and we were told this would be settled for a generation.
So the unionists on this thread are merely representing the thoughts of many in the rUK.
i.e.
Oh why don't you all just f
k off. Please.
k off at the end 
Edited by Strocky on Friday 17th April 10:29
Strocky said:
Ridgemont said:
What became clear very early on was just how poor much of the thinking behind the indy movement was. To take examples:
1) Europe - little or no thought had been given to the implication of exiting the union on Scotland's status. Almost any meaningful authority, not part of the indy campaign, were in agreement. To exit the union was to exit the EU. End of. Yet frustratingly this was ignored, then pooh-poohed. This approach was to become something of a recurring patern.
1) Europe - little or no thought had been given to the implication of exiting the union on Scotland's status. Almost any meaningful authority, not part of the indy campaign, were in agreement. To exit the union was to exit the EU. End of. Yet frustratingly this was ignored, then pooh-poohed. This approach was to become something of a recurring patern.
strocky said:
Yep it was a bit of a mess of contradictory quotes, letters and each side taking what they wanted out of anything of substance. What would have killed it stone dead was the UK government formally asking the EU the definitive question, they didn't (for whatever reason) therefore it was left to be an ambiguous mess.
The UKIP who have a scottish MEP asked on behalf of the SNP who have 2 MEPs who for some reason were completely incapable of asking despite having exactly the same rights as UKIP MEP
The answer was the same as every other answer from the EU
a new country has to reapply
And the reason 1.6million voted YES despite the obvious lies from the SNP i put down to the following factors
1 Being morons
2 Hating the English
3 Believing the lies that everything wrong in there life was the fault of those to the south (or is that UKIP voters)
4 Hating the 2 main parties in westminster and grasping any straw to get rid of them (or is that UKIP voters)
5 A deep rooted desire for independence of scotland even if it would wreck the economy and bring huge hardships to the poor
5 A belief that we are somehow better then others and we are being held back by them (or is that UKIP voters)
1 Being morons
2 Hating the English
3 Believing the lies that everything wrong in there life was the fault of those to the south (or is that UKIP voters)
4 Hating the 2 main parties in westminster and grasping any straw to get rid of them (or is that UKIP voters)
5 A deep rooted desire for independence of scotland even if it would wreck the economy and bring huge hardships to the poor
5 A belief that we are somehow better then others and we are being held back by them (or is that UKIP voters)
Strocky said:
Thanks for the reply, some decent points even though I disagree with most of them and a very English polite fk off at the end
Yep, fk off at the end Edited by Strocky on Friday 17th April 10:29
k off. You lot deserve it. It's far less harsh language than half the ste you fking nat nesbits were screaming, red-faced and spit-spraying in the streets of glasgae at anyone who dared speak out against independence. OpulentBob said:
Yep, fk off. You lot deserve it. It's far less harsh language than half the ste you fking nat nesbits were screaming, red-faced and spit-spraying in the streets of glasgae at anyone who dared speak out against independence.
I wish glasgow would declare independence and become a communist statek off. You lot deserve it. It's far less harsh language than half the ste you fking nat nesbits were screaming, red-faced and spit-spraying in the streets of glasgae at anyone who dared speak out against independence. Then we can ship all the YES voters to live there in paradise while us baby raping english tory traitor scum can carry on living away from paradise being oppressed by having a job.
Having watched bits of the debate last night, I am now very sure Sturgeon wants a Tory government.
Victim card will be clasped proudly to the chest, SNP MPs will make pointless soundbites in Westminster bewailing the fate imposed on downtrodden Scots. It's the SNP wet dream.
On the other hand, a Labour/SNP coalition/power-share would be a fricking disaster for the SNP. They'd actually have to try to deliver some of their barking promises and wouldn't be able to blame the Tories/Westminster/English. They'd do a Lib-Dems and implode.
Victim card will be clasped proudly to the chest, SNP MPs will make pointless soundbites in Westminster bewailing the fate imposed on downtrodden Scots. It's the SNP wet dream.
On the other hand, a Labour/SNP coalition/power-share would be a fricking disaster for the SNP. They'd actually have to try to deliver some of their barking promises and wouldn't be able to blame the Tories/Westminster/English. They'd do a Lib-Dems and implode.
AstonZagato said:
Having watched bits of the debate last night, I am now very sure Sturgeon wants a Tory government.
Victim card will be clasped proudly to the chest, SNP MPs will make pointless soundbites in Westminster bewailing the fate imposed on downtrodden Scots. It's the SNP wet dream.
On the other hand, a Labour/SNP coalition/power-share would be a fricking disaster for the SNP. They'd actually have to try to deliver some of their barking promises and wouldn't be able to blame the Tories/Westminster/English. They'd do a Lib-Dems and implode.
I happen to think that, in terms of electorate expectation and reality, the last government has perhaps had the toughest challenges in history. Personally my politically aware days have been spent under a labour government which has ridden the crest of an economic wave, and still borrowed.Victim card will be clasped proudly to the chest, SNP MPs will make pointless soundbites in Westminster bewailing the fate imposed on downtrodden Scots. It's the SNP wet dream.
On the other hand, a Labour/SNP coalition/power-share would be a fricking disaster for the SNP. They'd actually have to try to deliver some of their barking promises and wouldn't be able to blame the Tories/Westminster/English. They'd do a Lib-Dems and implode.
In a similar way to the SNP wanting a Tory government, I think I also would perversely see some positives in a Labour SNP coalition:
- no more moaning about Tory policies
- they'd have an awareness of what it means to control more than spending
- The 45 would feel more represented at UK level
I must say, however, I'm quite impressed with the Tories as they seem to be the only party trying to be inclusive of everyone, and not pitting their target voters AGAINST an enemy. IE labour vs the rich, SNP vs everyone else, UKIP vs immigrants and Europe.
Edited by simoid on Friday 17th April 12:05
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-bus...
"Unemployment in Scotland rose by 9,000 in the three months to February and now stands at 167,000, according to official statistics."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32348353
"UK unemployment has fallen to its lowest rate since July 2008, official figures have shown."
Proof that the SNP is failing Scotland and that the ongoing political uncertainty of an SNP government and potential further referendums causing issues?
"Unemployment in Scotland rose by 9,000 in the three months to February and now stands at 167,000, according to official statistics."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32348353
"UK unemployment has fallen to its lowest rate since July 2008, official figures have shown."
Proof that the SNP is failing Scotland and that the ongoing political uncertainty of an SNP government and potential further referendums causing issues?
MintyScot said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-bus...
"Unemployment in Scotland rose by 9,000 in the three months to February and now stands at 167,000, according to official statistics."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32348353
"UK unemployment has fallen to its lowest rate since July 2008, official figures have shown."
Proof that the SNP is failing Scotland and that the ongoing political uncertainty of an SNP government and potential further referendums causing issues?
Those b"Unemployment in Scotland rose by 9,000 in the three months to February and now stands at 167,000, according to official statistics."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32348353
"UK unemployment has fallen to its lowest rate since July 2008, official figures have shown."
Proof that the SNP is failing Scotland and that the ongoing political uncertainty of an SNP government and potential further referendums causing issues?
d english making >insert problem here< it will be far better once we are independentGassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff