Are there more people working than not working in the UK?

[xRIEx]

LucreLout said:

You're at it again! Stop using numbers you know full well don't discount all the myriad team leaders and supervisor posts.
You're making st up to portray an nhs that has never existed!

Haha, you're a schoolchild! Your only argument is the playground "I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?!" Hahaha.

I've given you the numbers and the links to the NHS key stats showing the staff numbers and splits including management.

You want to make a claim: back it up. Post a link to an independent, reliable source. You say the numbers are wrong, show me proof. You say you've got the numbers from ONS for one source, so you can post a link, surely?

So, which is it? 0.1% or 5%? And you remember yesterday's maths lesson? Teacher told you to always show your workings out.

[LucreLout]

xRIEx said:

Haha, you're a schoolchild! Your only argument is the playground "I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?!" Hahaha.

I've given you the numbers and the links to the NHS key stats showing the staff numbers and splits including management.

You want to make a claim: back it up. Post a link to an independent, reliable source. You say the numbers are wrong, show me proof. You say you've got the numbers from ONS for one source, so you can post a link, surely?

So, which is it? 0.1% or 5%? And you remember yesterday's maths lesson? Teacher told you to always show your workings out.

You've given meaningless and irrelevant numbers regarding how many qualified staff there are, with no breakdown of what they're doing.
How many of those qualified nurses are doing union business? How many are supervisors? How many are dental nurses with minimal qualifications and effectively working outside the nhs? How many are school nurses coping with
Only nits and scratched knees? How many more are doing nonjobs like physiotherapy (where they proudly state they have never put their hands on a patient the whole career!)?
If you can't be honest about your numbers then you're trolling. I had thought the schools were back, but it seems you're special.

[bingybongy]

Physiotherapy a non-job?
This is becoming laughable.

[LucreLout]

bingybongy said:

Physiotherapy a non-job?
This is becoming laughable.

When all they do is chat to the patient and hand out a leaflet, yes.
NHS physio isn't the same thing as actual physio involving the manual manipulation of joints. They quite proudly state they don't touch the patients, which is the whole point of physio. So yes, non-job.

[mph1977]

LucreLout said:

You've given meaningless and irrelevant numbers regarding how many qualified staff there are, with no breakdown of what they're doing.
How many of those qualified nurses are doing union business?

There are at most a handful of NHS employed Registered Nurses doing full time union work, primarily becasue it is only Unison who have full time convenors, other health sector Unions and Professional associations pay their own full time officers and the local reps get limited time as part of their working week - and most of that will be spent acting as represntative i nthe the Disciplinaries and attendance management hearings that the knockers claim never happen .

LucreLout said:

How many are supervisors?

again a relatively small number, band/ grade does not clearly define the role as supervision or practitioner until you reach band 8B/8C as there are few clinical jobs at that level

taking supervisor in it;s broadest sense

band 5 Registered Nurses are 'supervisors' they take charge of wards on a regular basis and direct the work of other band5s, Students on placement and the assistant grades when they are Nurse in Charge , they direct the work of Students and assistant grades on every shift they work as they hold the accountability for a group of patients.

Band 6 roles often have a degree of 'managerial' supervision in corporated in ward based roles, but in other parts of the service band 6s are almost entirely clinical as their Band 6 reflects their greater clinical responsibilities and skills (e.g. Assessment Nurse roles in emergency care/ urgent care, the lower grade specialist nurses acting as subject matter experts on tissue viability, vascular, infection control , critical care outreach etc and also those who workin first contact / crisis mental health services

some band 7 and band 8 roles are also mainly clinical - see above with reference to band 6s , but adding greater accountability and skills such indepdent prescribers or undertaking more invasive procedures and doing so independently .

we also come into the realms of the 'consultant Nurse' roles which are practice focused rather than managerial

LucreLout said:

How many are dental nurses with minimal qualifications and effectively working outside the nhs?

"Nurse " also as a restricted meaning in the NHS staffing figures - NMC registrants i.e. Registered Nurses and midwives , it does not include none -registered assistant grades, 'Dental Nurses' and 'Nursery nurses'

LucreLout said:

How many are school nurses coping with
Only nits and scratched knees?

you've got a funny idea of what Community Public Health Nursing is about. I am unaware of any State (none special) school with a full time Nurse who deals with 'nits and scraped knees' ... the Special schools with full time Nurses are a special case - but that;s unsuprising given the way in which they draw together large numbers of profoundly disabled children and young people often fro ma wide area and with complex care needs .

School nurse services are a combination of primary care, occupational health, sexual health, safeguarding and confidante , any 'treatment room' stuff is lucky addon if the Nurse is one the right site at the right moment - otherwise it's down to the first aiders or 999 to deal with the scraped knees etc.

The independent schools sector is different but their recruitment of School Nurses is to generally to provide occupational health and treatment room services in addition to some for m of 'intermediate care' provision for boarders considered too ill for the dorms but not ill enough for acute hospital admission

LucreLout said:

How many more are doing nonjobs like physiotherapy (where they proudly state they have never put their hands on a patient the whole career!)?

You will find precisely NO Nurses employed as physios, although there are common areas of practice and common skills, as Physios are a seperately registered and regulated (by the HCPC) profession, and a physio who doesn;t put their hands on patient is not a physio , i think you may be confusing the 'i don't do poo' therefore I work in outpatients types comments there with 'not touching patients' , as the physios and oTs who work in inpatient settings very much touch patients and in most inpatient settings do find themselves involvedin delivering personal care whether that is planned ( OTs especially ) or just as part ofthe wider responsibilities as a Professional and in line with the Dignity and 6Cs agenda

LucreLout said:

If you can't be honest about your numbers then you're trolling. I had thought the schools were back, but it seems you're special.

i think you'll find the troll here is you lucre lout, especially given the utter levle of ignorance you have displayed about practice yet you assert you know what the problems are.

[bingybongy]

LucreLout said:

bingybongy said:

Physiotherapy a non-job?
This is becoming laughable.

When all they do is chat to the patient and hand out a leaflet, yes.
NHS physio isn't the same thing as actual physio involving the manual manipulation of joints. They quite proudly state they don't touch the patients, which is the whole point of physio. So yes, non-job.

You display an amazing lack of knowledge about some of the tasks carried out in the NHS, the physious on my old man's stroke ward were very much hands on.

[xRIEx]

LucreLout said:

You've given meaningless and irrelevant numbers

You've given absolutely nothing. You've got nothing.

What is the final figure you're claiming - 0.1% or 5%?

Post a link to your sources.

[mph1977]

bingybongy said:

LucreLout said:

bingybongy said:

Physiotherapy a non-job?
This is becoming laughable.

When all they do is chat to the patient and hand out a leaflet, yes.
NHS physio isn't the same thing as actual physio involving the manual manipulation of joints. They quite proudly state they don't touch the patients, which is the whole point of physio. So yes, non-job.

You display an amazing lack of knowledge about some of the tasks carried out in the NHS, the physious on my old man's stroke ward were very much hands on.

Exactly, it appears that lucre lout is just demonstrating unconcsious incompetence as a consumer of healthcare never mind as someone who understands the different treatments different conditions need.

for none-specific 'backpain' or early possible WRULD advice is the health intervention of value, the other stuff in these cases is either to sort it yourself or for Occupational Health / Health and safety in the work place to use the principles contained in Safety legislation to reduce the risk of these work related injuries occuring .

for mild to moderate sprains and strains or even post immobilisation limb rehab (i.e. when you;'ve had splints or a pot removed) advice, as self care following simple exercises is all that is needed ....

people do tend to confuse what is necessary with what they can be sold by private practitioners out to make a profit. Boy oh boy do the private practice physios love it when the footballists have a new fad for heat / cvold / ultra sound etc as sure as eggs is eggs the sunday league boys will want it as well at 50 gbp/ hour ...

[7thCircleAcolyte]

mph1977 said:

You will find precisely NO Nurses employed as physios, although there are common areas of practice and common skills, as Physios are a seperately registered and regulated (by the HCPC) profession, and a physio who doesn;t put their hands on patient is not a physio , i think you may be confusing the 'i don't do poo' therefore I work in outpatients types comments there with 'not touching patients' , as the physios and oTs who work in inpatient settings very much touch patients and in most inpatient settings do find themselves involvedin delivering personal care whether that is planned ( OTs especially ) or just as part ofthe wider responsibilities as a Professional and in line with the Dignity and 6Cs agenda

Sorry MPH, but on this you are very firmly in the wrong. My wife gave birth at Addenbrookes in Cambridge, and due to hospital acquired infections, was bed ridden for a few weeks in the maternity ward. She has a condition that requires physio when the problem is active.
Of the in-patient physiotherapists visiting my wife, none of them had any physical contact with patients - they were horrified by the suggestion that they should. While I fundamentally disagree with most of what has been posted, the assertation that it is a non-job is spot on.
There was no aspect of physio my wife received that could not have been better delivered via a pamphlet. It had reached the point where the hospital manager was refusing to allow me to bring in a private physio to do the manual manipulation, so that my wife could stand up and walk.
Upon discharge she was issued a wheelchair, a zimmerframe, crutches and all manner of other apparatus, to be delivered later in the week. As I explained to the supervisor in charge of the physio team, she wouldn't need it as she'd be walking unaided in 3 weeks with a little proper physio. They were adamant I needed to prepare myself for a recovery taking several months. To say they were shocked 2 weeks later when she walked in for final tests on her infections would be an understatement.
I have extremely string feelings about the standard of care received - for our baby it could not have been better, and I will be eternally greatful to all the staff that cared for her, but for my wife, it could hardly have been worse. I had to change her dressings myself because some of the midwives wanted to prioritise paperwork and hiding in the office over basic patient care.


[1] - The numbers provided intitially show the number of qualified staff. They don't show the number of qualified staff practicing their area of expertise. A qualified nurse undertaking other work will still show as a nurse, despite potentially not having seen a paitent in many years. As such, all of the numbers in this thread are junk. Its just lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Given the stats presented show roughly 37k managers in the NHS, but about 1.4 million employees, does anyone really believe every manager in the NHS has 37.5 line reports? Obviously the numbers of managers are incorrect, and that will come from playing politics over what is and isn't a manager. Defining manager by title or grade is irrelevant - what matter is the duties undertaken, and self evidently there are magnitudes more staff undertaking supervisory roles than the numbers supplied indicate.

[LucreLout]

bingybongy said:

You display an amazing lack of knowledge about some of the tasks carried out in the NHS, the physious on my old man's stroke ward were very much hands on.

Firstly, I hope your old man made as fuller recovery as is possible from his stroke.

However, that is just one ward in one hospital. Each trust run their hospitals differently, and I can guarantee you that several have teams of physios that refrain from contact with patients.

[xRIEx]

7thCircleAcolyte said:

on this you are very firmly in the wrong. My wife gave birth at Addenbrookes in Cambridge, and due to hospital acquired infections, was bed ridden for a few weeks in the maternity ward. She has a condition that requires physio when the problem is active.
Of the in-patient physiotherapists visiting my wife, none of them had any physical contact with patients - they were horrified by the suggestion that they should. While I fundamentally disagree with most of what has been posted, the assertation that it is a non-job is spot on.
There was no aspect of physio my wife received that could not have been better delivered via a pamphlet. It had reached the point where the hospital manager was refusing to allow me to bring in a private physio to do the manual manipulation, so that my wife could stand up and walk.
Upon discharge she was issued a wheelchair, a zimmerframe, crutches and all manner of other apparatus, to be delivered later in the week. As I explained to the supervisor in charge of the physio team, she wouldn't need it as she'd be walking unaided in 3 weeks with a little proper physio. They were adamant I needed to prepare myself for a recovery taking several months. To say they were shocked 2 weeks later when she walked in for final tests on her infections would be an understatement.
I have extremely string feelings about the standard of care received - for our baby it could not have been better, and I will be eternally greatful to all the staff that cared for her, but for my wife, it could hardly have been worse. I had to change her dressings myself because some of the midwives wanted to prioritise paperwork and hiding in the office over basic patient care.

LucreLout said:

that is just one ward in one hospital. Each trust run their hospitals differently,

[LucreLout]

xRIEx said:

So you agree then that we can cut the non-physio non-jobs? It's a start.

[xRIEx]

LucreLout said:

So you agree then that we can cut the non-physio non-jobs? It's a start.

I was pointing out the futility of using an individual's anecdote as supporting evidence for a national entity.


"Non-jobs" could theoretically be cut, but even they have value to the economy, as it keeps money in circulation.

Can you provide a link to the number of 'non-jobs' in the public sector?


Have you decided what percentage of public sector jobs are of medical advantage to the UK population yet? 0.1% or 5%?

[mph1977]

7thCircleAcolyte said:

Sorry MPH, but on this you are very firmly in the wrong. My wife gave birth at Addenbrookes in Cambridge, and due to hospital acquired infections, was bed ridden for a few weeks in the maternity ward. She has a condition that requires physio when the problem is active.
Of the in-patient physiotherapists visiting my wife, none of them had any physical contact with patients - they were horrified by the suggestion that they should. While I fundamentally disagree with most of what has been posted, the assertation that it is a non-job is spot on.
There was no aspect of physio my wife received that could not have been better delivered via a pamphlet. It had reached the point where the hospital manager was refusing to allow me to bring in a private physio to do the manual manipulation, so that my wife could stand up and walk.
Upon discharge she was issued a wheelchair, a zimmerframe, crutches and all manner of other apparatus, to be delivered later in the week. As I explained to the supervisor in charge of the physio team, she wouldn't need it as she'd be walking unaided in 3 weeks with a little proper physio. They were adamant I needed to prepare myself for a recovery taking several months. To say they were shocked 2 weeks later when she walked in for final tests on her infections would be an understatement.
I have extremely string feelings about the standard of care received - for our baby it could not have been better, and I will be eternally greatful to all the staff that cared for her, but for my wife, it could hardly have been worse. I had to change her dressings myself because some of the midwives wanted to prioritise paperwork and hiding in the office over basic patient care.


[1] - The numbers provided intitially show the number of qualified staff. They don't show the number of qualified staff practicing their area of expertise. A qualified nurse undertaking other work will still show as a nurse, despite potentially not having seen a paitent in many years. As such, all of the numbers in this thread are junk. Its just lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Given the stats presented show roughly 37k managers in the NHS, but about 1.4 million employees, does anyone really believe every manager in the NHS has 37.5 line reports? Obviously the numbers of managers are incorrect, and that will come from playing politics over what is and isn't a manager. Defining manager by title or grade is irrelevant - what matter is the duties undertaken, and self evidently there are magnitudes more staff undertaking supervisory roles than the numbers supplied indicate.

your post is not clear

does you wife have a pre existing condition unrelated to the HAI following childbirth ?

now we are one of the twilight zones of the NHS , Midwifery for those with co-morbidity, sadly due to the push to direct entry midwifery over the past 20 years we are now faced with a situation where Midwives are unable to cope with co-morbid Mothers as they have no Healthcare experience outside the warm and fluffy world of normal birth and the bizarre mindset of Midwives.


as for the reports yes that sounds about right - especially if you look at how many job descriptions are structured with supervisors not being the reporting Manager.

[Vocal Minority]

I can't do anything other than scan the thread - too much gnashing of teeth and wailing to go into detail.

Has anyone complaining about the public sector as a drain on society being paid from tax rather than contributing too mentioned a). the tax they pay (relatively modest I know), and b). that unless every single nurse, road sweeper, planning officer and cleaner of bus stations is sending every penny of their money abroad, that it finds its way back into the system eventually.

[7thCircleAcolyte]

mph1977 said:

does you wife have a pre existing condition unrelated to the HAI following childbirth ?

Yes. She has a pre-existing incurable condition that flares up periodically. Due to being bedridden with HAIs, she was unable to move which compounded the problems caused when her condition flared up.

Simple physiotherapy would have alleviated a lot of pain, discomfort, and would have arrested the downward spiral her condition tends to follow. It would have preserved her range of movement such that she could reach the toilet unaided.

Literally 2 private physio appointments later, and she was up and about with only one crutch. 2 more and she was walking unaided.

mph1977 said:

now we are one of the twilight zones of the NHS , Midwifery for those with co-morbidity, sadly due to the push to direct entry midwifery over the past 20 years we are now faced with a situation where Midwives are unable to cope with co-morbid Mothers as they have no Healthcare experience outside the warm and fluffy world of normal birth and the bizarre mindset of Midwives.

I agree that it is an unusual area of care in how it operates, but changing dressings on a patient already suffering 2 HAIs would appear to me to be encompassed by the basics of qualified healthcare.

However, in case I have somehow forgotten to mention the outstanding staff at the Addenbrookes/Rosie hospital NICU & SCBU units who cared for my baby when she was ill, full marks for effort. We could not have been happier.

mph1977 said:

as for the reports yes that sounds about right - especially if you look at how many job descriptions are structured with supervisors not being the reporting Manager.

Which is the essence of the sophistry in the numbers posted by xRIEx, though please don't misunderstand that as an accusation against him, as opposed to what he is quoting. On the plus side he at least provided links, unlike one of the contributors.

[bingybongy]

LucreLout said:

bingybongy said:

You display an amazing lack of knowledge about some of the tasks carried out in the NHS, the physious on my old man's stroke ward were very much hands on.

Firstly, I hope your old man made as fuller recovery as is possible from his stroke.

However, that is just one ward in one hospital. Each trust run their hospitals differently, and I can guarantee you that several have teams of physios that refrain from contact with patients.

Unfortunately he didn't.

I suggest you all move to Derby as The Royal is a great hospital. On second thoughts don't, I like it as it is.

[mph1977]

7thCircleAcolyte said:

<snip>

mph1977 said:

as for the reports yes that sounds about right - especially if you look at how many job descriptions are structured with supervisors not being the reporting Manager.

Which is the essence of the sophistry in the numbers posted by xRIEx, though please don't misunderstand that as an accusation against him, as opposed to what he is quoting. On the plus side he at least provided links, unlike one of the contributors.

not really as i posted in my reply to Lucre lout it dpends what you mean by supervisor...

As a band 5 RN I regularly took charge of Clinical areas for the shift ergo i was a supervisor as it would be me that would be expected to give account of why certain things did or did not happen , even if i wasn't in charge i would still be expected to direct the work of one or more assitatns and/or students.

the (limited number of ) Band 6s in the ward environment had ongoing managerial accountability devolved to them from the unit manager , both as team managers and leading on certain aspects of practice as wellas as being 'nurse in Charge' when on shift .

the band 7 ( or i nthe case of critical care / emergency dept the prima inter pares band 7) was the Senior Sister /Senior Charge Nurse and they had the overall responsiblity for Nursing on that ward /unit they were the reporting managing for all the staff (assistant grades, and band 5 and band 6 RNs) on the unit.

[Huff]

Back to the OP's point - I'm taking a few days, well actually, a fortnight off; it's been a very long time coming.

Popped into the office this morning anyway to address a client issue (yeah, I know ...); and decided on my way out, to make the hateful but endlessly-postponed visit to local (Bristol) Ikea, thinking that at 11am on a Tuesday it could be passable, nay, empty.

WRONG.
f'ing rammed, entirely by people who can barely think, breathe or waddle unaided.

Left, deeply depressed.

[DervVW]

dibbers006 said:

Question: In a few hours time, how significantly will the 'in-work'/ 'not-in-work' statistic be altered

I dont get it...? Parrot incoming?