Front cover of today's Times.
Discussion
jmorgan said:
Rude-boy said:
IS are trying to provoke a military reaction to this so that they can enlarge their support in the area and claim to be the defenders of the faith against the English and American Infidels and Pigdogs.
You know what? I don't think we should give it to them.
Bang on methinks. Over reaction by the west will play into their hands.You know what? I don't think we should give it to them.
I think what they do not want is more air attacks, personally I think we should use our air assets, yes some will rally to the cause, but lots have already, we are past the stage of wanting to be liked, we have to do what is right.
PRTVR said:
So behead a few citizens of a particular country, then threaten to kill a few more, you think this situation should dictate the action of the Government?
I think what they do not want is more air attacks, personally I think we should use our air assets, yes some will rally to the cause, but lots have already, we are past the stage of wanting to be liked, we have to do what is right.
What are you going to use those air assets against? I think what they do not want is more air attacks, personally I think we should use our air assets, yes some will rally to the cause, but lots have already, we are past the stage of wanting to be liked, we have to do what is right.
What ISIS need are more people stepping up to the cause. The quickest way to do that is to draw in the West with conventional tactics. You cannot kill an ideology that way. No matter how screwed up the ideology (tbh the more screwed up they are, the less appropriate conventional means are).
They need to be destroyed from the inside.
Murph7355 said:
PRTVR said:
So behead a few citizens of a particular country, then threaten to kill a few more, you think this situation should dictate the action of the Government?
I think what they do not want is more air attacks, personally I think we should use our air assets, yes some will rally to the cause, but lots have already, we are past the stage of wanting to be liked, we have to do what is right.
What are you going to use those air assets against? I think what they do not want is more air attacks, personally I think we should use our air assets, yes some will rally to the cause, but lots have already, we are past the stage of wanting to be liked, we have to do what is right.
What ISIS need are more people stepping up to the cause. The quickest way to do that is to draw in the West with conventional tactics. You cannot kill an ideology that way. No matter how screwed up the ideology (tbh the more screwed up they are, the less appropriate conventional means are).
They need to be destroyed from the inside.
I don't know what the answers is, wading in with size 15 boots n bombs is I think going to work against us unless they are very careful. If there is a clear target then bomb them but they have the upper hand in publicity and on the web today, I think that counts a lot. Their followers have been promised a slice of power basically, we need to get that back and show them that there is no power in a dictatorship for the minions.
It might be that a confrontation with a professional army might be what is required? But at the moment they are angling for the bog response that they can spin, and that spin is what they want.
jmorgan said:
Murph7355 said:
PRTVR said:
So behead a few citizens of a particular country, then threaten to kill a few more, you think this situation should dictate the action of the Government?
I think what they do not want is more air attacks, personally I think we should use our air assets, yes some will rally to the cause, but lots have already, we are past the stage of wanting to be liked, we have to do what is right.
What are you going to use those air assets against? I think what they do not want is more air attacks, personally I think we should use our air assets, yes some will rally to the cause, but lots have already, we are past the stage of wanting to be liked, we have to do what is right.
What ISIS need are more people stepping up to the cause. The quickest way to do that is to draw in the West with conventional tactics. You cannot kill an ideology that way. No matter how screwed up the ideology (tbh the more screwed up they are, the less appropriate conventional means are).
They need to be destroyed from the inside.
I don't know what the answers is, wading in with size 15 boots n bombs is I think going to work against us unless they are very careful. If there is a clear target then bomb them but they have the upper hand in publicity and on the web today, I think that counts a lot. Their followers have been promised a slice of power basically, we need to get that back and show them that there is no power in a dictatorship for the minions.
It might be that a confrontation with a professional army might be what is required? But at the moment they are angling for the bog response that they can spin, and that spin is what they want.
BillPeart said:
grumbledoak said:
Driller said:
Am I the only one to think that the West were frustrated that they were unable to convince the world to let them change the regime in Syria so they orchestrated a few beheadings of a few Americans and now English to whip up a bit of public opinion in favour of going in?
Or is that too much of a conspiracy theory?
Not too much; it's a very good conspiracy theory. It's well within the CIA's past actions.Or is that too much of a conspiracy theory?
I think we should allow them their state, once they've fought over the borders. The current lines on the map in that region are meaningless anyway.
If we (the Western powers, with Britain at the forefront) hadn't waded in and carved the whole region up into utterly illogical (with reference to the people on the ground) states in the first place, the whole of the Middle East would be far less of a clusterf
k now!PRTVR said:
To do nothing is not the answer,would not IS think that they could control what we do with a few threats ? I was against going into Syria, but this is different, the world needs to wake up and do something, I am sure there is enough air power to stop everything moving in the territory they hold,this will let them know who is in charge.
Never said do nothing, do the right thing. And is air power the panacea fro this cancer?e.g. That bloke that does the dirty work, identify him. Publish on the net, start a campaign and put a ransom on his head and head alone. Make life hard for the kidnappers, personally not ideologically. Say your prayers for the hostages and let loose the people that can get them. It may involve air strikes, it may involve small numbers on the ground, but show the wannabe dictators there is a price and it will be paid in full.
Again, I know not what the answers are and I bet the US at the very least has a lot more info then they let on. If they get him, first, say never heard of him. Not the Mr so and so from London. Must be an impostor.
Problem there is we are blurring the lines we like to think we live by. Personally I am not sure we cannot cross them and live normally.
And I am an arm chair general like the rest of us.
Kermit power said:
BillPeart said:
grumbledoak said:
Driller said:
Am I the only one to think that the West were frustrated that they were unable to convince the world to let them change the regime in Syria so they orchestrated a few beheadings of a few Americans and now English to whip up a bit of public opinion in favour of going in?
Or is that too much of a conspiracy theory?
Not too much; it's a very good conspiracy theory. It's well within the CIA's past actions.Or is that too much of a conspiracy theory?
I think we should allow them their state, once they've fought over the borders. The current lines on the map in that region are meaningless anyway.
If we (the Western powers, with Britain at the forefront) hadn't waded in and carved the whole region up into utterly illogical (with reference to the people on the ground) states in the first place, the whole of the Middle East would be far less of a clusterf
k now!That he supports allowing a gang of bloodthirsty maniacs and their mercenary com padres to 'govern' over how many people, in how large an area? And do what to them. Again, Christ!
grumbledoak said:
BillPeart said:
Christ!
You have a problem with forming a state by right of conquest?BillPeart said:
Worthless canard.
Consider what/whom you supported in your naive post.
Quack.Consider what/whom you supported in your naive post.
What would be the difference if there was another, new country there? Three, or maybe one, where there were two? So what? So the US would have to buy oil from someone who doesn't like them very much? I hate to break it to you, but that's already pretty much all of them and you are currently talking about more air strikes. How many new friends did that make us last time?
/\
Beyond the making friends stage. Or the worry of producing new recruits. It's war, now in name too - certainly at our end. Finally.
Get them now, as many of them as possible, whilst they are out in the open in a theater of war and before they have the time to bolt into towns and cities (that still have living residents they haven't displaced or massacred) and kill as many as possible, weaken their corps and, certainly, stop them pushing even further.
If our golfing clown hadn't dithered we could probably have killed many more, pegged them back to a greater degree and stopped god only knows how many encroachments followed by torture, before they knew it was coming. But he was too busy wringing hands and high-fiving those of celebs, after saying how heartbroken he was by the beheadings. What a disappointment he's been.
Beyond the making friends stage. Or the worry of producing new recruits. It's war, now in name too - certainly at our end. Finally.
Get them now, as many of them as possible, whilst they are out in the open in a theater of war and before they have the time to bolt into towns and cities (that still have living residents they haven't displaced or massacred) and kill as many as possible, weaken their corps and, certainly, stop them pushing even further.
If our golfing clown hadn't dithered we could probably have killed many more, pegged them back to a greater degree and stopped god only knows how many encroachments followed by torture, before they knew it was coming. But he was too busy wringing hands and high-fiving those of celebs, after saying how heartbroken he was by the beheadings. What a disappointment he's been.
Driller said:
BillPeart said:
/\
Get them now kill as many as possible, weaken their corps and, certainly, stop them pushing even further.
You war mongering people never, ever learn do you? Ever. Get them now kill as many as possible, weaken their corps and, certainly, stop them pushing even further.
Of course we could just do as you apologists suggest. Leave them be. Leave them and their
Then they'd start being nice. Stop hitting out and railing and sniping and murdering and torturing. Become tolerant and civilized. And present no further threat to the peoples in the region, or us.
Yes, that's what would happen. For sure.
BillPeart said:
Driller said:
BillPeart said:
/\
Get them now kill as many as possible, weaken their corps and, certainly, stop them pushing even further.
You war mongering people never, ever learn do you? Ever. Get them now kill as many as possible, weaken their corps and, certainly, stop them pushing even further.
Of course we could just do as you apologists suggest. Leave them be. Leave them and their
Then they'd start being nice. Stop hitting out and railing and sniping and murdering and torturing. Become tolerant and civilized. And present no further threat to the peoples in the region, or us.
Yes, that's what would happen. For sure.
Yes we should let them be. As we should have let them be in Iraq, Afghanistan and all those other Middle East countries where they stuck their noses in for financial/world dominance.
No, they wouldn't start being "nice", they'd just continue being nasty in their own land with no interest whatsoever in us because we wouldn't be bombing them and they'd gave nothing to retaliate for.
As a bonus we wouldn't be forever brow beaten by the media and government crowing from high about the "terrorist threat" and the "axis of evil" etc etc
Actually where is the axis of evil these days? Haven't heard about it for while, is it on the tilt?
And look at this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29248955
So now they have the excuse they wanted.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29248955
So now they have the excuse they wanted.
PRTVR said:
To do nothing is not the answer,would not IS think that they could control what we do with a few threats ? I was against going into Syria, but this is different, the world needs to wake up and do something, I am sure there is enough air power to stop everything moving in the territory they hold,this will let them know who is in charge.
You need to look at the history books a bit more about how successful air campaigns are against ideologies like this. Look at pretty much every intervention the West has made since WWII and how successful they have been in the long term. Am not saying do nothing. But trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome every time was once offered as the definition of insanity by a wise man. There's a healthy dose of irony in those calling IS insane whilst also suggesting we use the same sort of tactics in that region that we've been using for over a hundred years.
If we go in with conventional means, a lot of our servicemen will die, and we will build a healthier foundation for the cause of those we want to stop. We have proven this several times in the last 20-30yrs alone.
grumbledoak said:
I am no apologist. Nor an appeaser. Nothing to stop us aiding allies in the region to fight them to a standstill then say: "Ok, there is your Islamic State. That's a lot of people to feed on what appears to be rocks and sand. Well, you are the Caliph, your move..." 
Do you think after their takeover of half the middle east is done they will sit inside their own border content ?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff