Scandinavian societies

[Stevanos]

Finlandia said:

Trains hardly go on time, if they go at all, so not really solid.

My train runs pretty much on time everyday, plus if I miss it there is another one every 15 minutes.

You should get my train.

[Finlandia]

Stevanos said:

Finlandia said:

Trains hardly go on time, if they go at all, so not really solid.

My train runs pretty much on time everyday, plus if I miss it there is another one every 15 minutes.

You should get my train.

Pardon?

[Stevanos]

The trains seem very good in West Sweden, as are the roads, the airport and just about everything,

[Finlandia]

I'm only an hour away from Stockholm, the number of trains not running on time is staggering, either there's a power cut or then the rails have failed. The roads are pretty well taken care of during the summer but in the winter you can have a foot of snow on them for days before it's cleared.

[fido]

Finlandia, have you lived outside Sweden/Finland? Just wondering ...

[Finlandia]

fido said:

Finlandia, have you lived outside Sweden/Finland? Just wondering ...

In South East England, yes, and to be honest I found it to be not too different from Sweden and Finland, except you pay a lot less taxes.

[Stevanos]

Finlandia said:

I'm only an hour away from Stockholm, the number of trains not running on time is staggering, either there's a power cut or then the rails have failed. The roads are pretty well taken care of during the summer but in the winter you can have a foot of snow on them for days before it's cleared.

You know what they say.. West is best! ;-)

[Finlandia]

Stevanos said:

Finlandia said:

I'm only an hour away from Stockholm, the number of trains not running on time is staggering, either there's a power cut or then the rails have failed. The roads are pretty well taken care of during the summer but in the winter you can have a foot of snow on them for days before it's cleared.

You know what they say.. West is best! ;-)

As long as you can dodge all the bullets flying around in the Gothenburg shootings, yes

[Derek Smith]

IainT said:

My wife finds this aspect of our society hard to understand. She's Swedish from a family that's fairly right-leaning politically but the collective approach is ingrained in her and all the Swedes I know. If the US is the ultimate in selfish society and Scandinavia the other end then we're somewhere in the middle and moving to a more selfish way of being isn't good for anyone in the long run.

I had a Danish friend, unoddly called Sven, who lived near me. He had family in Norway and regularly visited them in what passes for summer up there, and occasionally in their autumn. He used to tour Norway/Sweden and never paid anything for accommodation. At one time two groups of motorcyclists came over and just turned up at his place, expecting hospitality.

His small flat was too tiny so I was asked to put up four of them for three nights.

They were a pleasant bunch but what was difficult to grasp was the expectation of not being a guest so much as there of right. It's not that they were rude or anything, just the opposite, but that they thought nothing of raiding the fridge and eating what was there without asking.

They didn't take the Sunday joint, but the sausages, eggs and bacon took a pounding. They bought some food in, stuff they liked from a local supermarket, with enough for all of us.

They didn't offer to pay for anything which I found odd but in talking to Sven he reckoned that he never did so as it would be seen as rude. They were very tidy - you wouldn't think they'd been there when they left.

Lovely crowd though. I met up with the whole group a couple of times. This was in the late 70s and they were riding old BMWs, a /4 being the newest, and mopeds two up. I had a 750/6 as well as a commuting MZ250, and they all had a ride of the latter, ignoring the BMW. Thankfully.

My friend said that there was an expectation of hospitality. He fell off his Honda 500 in Norway in the middle of nowhere and broke some bone in his foot. He was spotted within a few minutes, taken to hospital, then when treated the staff phoned someone and they came and picked him up until he was well enough to ride his bike. A local garage had repaired the damage, which included a repair to the exhaust and some non-Honda footrests. He'd not been in the town(we'd call it a village) before.

It was, he said, no big deal for them.

Nice culture.

[Looket]

I think I may have pissed in XJ Flyer's morning coffee.

Allow me to explain.

Norway is a great country. They've truly got their st together, however I can't help but feel that it could be so much better. It would be close to paradise with a bit (read: a lot) less inane socialism and insane greenyism. Just seems like a bit of a shame for an otherwise cracking place. If they're happy with it however then who am I to criticise, I'm just voicing my 2p and dreaming of greener pastures.

With regard to Jante, then it's definitely still alive and kicking. Go to Djursholm in Stockholm and be amazed at how crushingly ordinarily the economical elite of the country live. Repeat in other Nordic countries. Perhaps not the best example, but definitely drives the point home.

As for the recent Swedish election, it's not really playing on any fears. Rather, there's neither space nor money to accommodate 100k+ refugees a year. To put that into perspective, as of 2011 there were 140.000 foreign born people in Finland. Add to that, immigration is estimated to cost a cool £25bn/year which is roughly 7% of GDP and while not entirely a fair comparison, 30% of total government income. The numbers don't add up, and reality most certainly doesn't. Crime is through the roof.

Either way, Sweden is currently teetering on the brink of utter devastation - with or without ze Borg. When the current bubble bursts you'll see what happens to a small export dependent country with rising social tensions and vastly overvalued property and financial markets. Very few people own their properties or have any equity in them and even fewer people have any considerable savings - 80% of households have an average contingency of £6000, the rest none. It's a recipe for disaster. On the bright side, it'll be the end of the Swedish welfare state as we know it and I suspect that'll be the true legacy of Messrs. Reinfeldt and Borg.

[raftom]

Looket said:

With regard to Jante, then it's definitely still alive and kicking.

Never heard of it before. Sounds like the kind of thing you would expect from North Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

[Lost soul]

raftom said:

Looket said:

With regard to Jante, then it's definitely still alive and kicking.

Never heard of it before. Sounds like the kind of thing you would expect from North Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

Very Very big in Denmark

[FiF]

lagom

[otolith]

The cultural difference that Jante highlights is the reason you can't impose Scandinavian politics on the UK any more than you can impose Western secular democracy on half the Middle East - the politics are the product of the culture, not vice-versa.

[Finlandia]

FiF said:

lagom

...är bäst.

Lagom is a very interesting word, it has no English or Finnish (or probably any other language for that matter) equivalent, "just the right amount", or in other words, don't you dare to be different from the masses.

[SGirl]

Finlandia said:

...är bäst.

Lagom is a very interesting word, it has no English or Finnish (or probably any other language for that matter) equivalent, "just the right amount", or in other words, don't you dare to be different from the masses.

Yes indeed. Both "lagom" and "Jantelagen" are PsITA to translate, and Swedes in particular tend to be unable to work out why non-Scandies wouldn't know what Jantelagen is and why the translator needs to explain it. You can have hours of fun batting ideas around.

[FiF]

Finlandia said:

FiF said:

lagom

...är bäst.

Lagom is a very interesting word, it has no English or Finnish (or probably any other language for that matter) equivalent, "just the right amount", or in other words, don't you dare to be different from the masses.

It's as otolith comments above, a cultural concept. Very difficult to explain it particularly to those who don't get it, or aren't so humble.

[THX]

loafer123 said:

Not much that xjflyer writes makes sense.

No point trying to square that circle.

I'm not even convinced he's a real person. Just a word generator working overtime, roughly pointing in the direction of politics.

It's the little things that give it away; the way he (it) brushes off (masses of) criticism, and use of commas and full stops.

Listen, and understand. That XJFlyer is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead. Or reading binary code politics.

[FredClogs]

otolith said:

The cultural difference that Jante highlights is the reason you can't impose Scandinavian politics on the UK any more than you can impose Western secular democracy on half the Middle East - the politics are the product of the culture, not vice-versa.

This is true, the situation in the UK is that we're trying to reconcile our very wide and thinly spread cultural influences, are we like the Scandies? Germanic? We like the French attitude to food and wine and authority, we adore the American chutzpah and aspirational thinking, the Latin flair impresses us, we admire the Asian work ethic and commitment to principle - we even like to kick back and chill like Spaniards on occasion.

There is nothing wrong with this, it just means we have a fluid political and cultural landscape.

Hope non of what I wrote was racist (that's the Jewish neurosis and middle class guilt)

[xjsdriver]

Stevanos said:

Finlandia said:

I'm only an hour away from Stockholm, the number of trains not running on time is staggering, either there's a power cut or then the rails have failed. The roads are pretty well taken care of during the summer but in the winter you can have a foot of snow on them for days before it's cleared.

You know what they say.. West is best! ;-)

The trains and other services in Malmo - just seem to work. My Brother's wife commutes daily from Malmo to Copenhagen without issue.