Scandinavian societies

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otolith

Original Poster:

56,011 posts

204 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
To avoid derailing the "what car" topic any further;

XJ Flyer said:
Norway might have some 'issues',related to certain types of socialist tendencies like its attitude towards freedom related to car use.But having long ago decided to do what the Scottish didn't have the bottle to do and staying well out of the EU,collectivism/federalism obviously certainly isn't one of those 'issues'.
You misunderstand what I mean by collectivism - I mean it as the opposite of individualism, the belief that what is better for the community is more important than what better for the individualism. I don't think you can divorce that from a tendency towards societies with a high degree of socialisation of services and provision of social welfare. It's really nothing to do with European federalism except in so much that the European project has some similar ideals. Your views on the relationship between the individual and wider society are really incompatible with your view on the desirability of the Norwegian model.

Asterix

24,438 posts

228 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
The Borg.

loafer123

15,426 posts

215 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all

Not much that xjflyer writes makes sense.

No point trying to square that circle.

Foppo

2,344 posts

124 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
loafer123 said:
Not much that xjflyer writes makes sense.

No point trying to square that circle.
What kind of society do you think we should live in or what we can do to inprove ours? If improvement is necessary.



Jasandjules

69,867 posts

229 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Foppo said:
What kind of society do you think we should live in or what we can do to inprove ours? If improvement is necessary.
A happy society where being kind and intelligent is celebrated.

Foppo

2,344 posts

124 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Which is a fair point Jasandjules that is what we all subscribe to.It is also important that people will take responsibility for their actions. Don't do to others what you don't like done to yourself.Which society is better or worse I don't know.I would think people living in N/Korea aren't happy with their lot except the few.




Finlandia

7,803 posts

231 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Asterix said:
The Borg.
Lost the election and has now resigned together with Fredrik.

Stevanos

700 posts

137 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Finlandia said:
Lost the election and has now resigned together with Fredrik.
Watch the economic downfall of Sweden over the next few years.

Finlandia

7,803 posts

231 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Stevanos said:
Finlandia said:
Lost the election and has now resigned together with Fredrik.
Watch the economic downfall of Sweden over the next few years.
I think the economy of Sweden was always a bit polished, don't get me wrong it's not as if we are poor here, but the economic aim has always been for the state to do well, not the individual, and that is why the recent election went the way it did.

Stevanos

700 posts

137 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Finlandia said:
I think the economy of Sweden was always a bit polished, don't get me wrong it's not as if we are poor here, but the economic aim has always been for the state to do well, not the individual, and that is why the recent election went the way it did.
Maybe, plus the parties playing on peoples fears on immigration.

IainT

10,040 posts

238 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
otolith said:
I mean it as the opposite of individualism, the belief that what is better for the community is more important than what better for the individualism.
My wife finds this aspect of our society hard to understand. She's Swedish from a family that's fairly right-leaning politically but the collective approach is ingrained in her and all the Swedes I know. If the US is the ultimate in selfish society and Scandinavia the other end then we're somewhere in the middle and moving to a more selfish way of being isn't good for anyone in the long run.

Finlandia

7,803 posts

231 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Stevanos said:
Finlandia said:
I think the economy of Sweden was always a bit polished, don't get me wrong it's not as if we are poor here, but the economic aim has always been for the state to do well, not the individual, and that is why the recent election went the way it did.
Maybe, plus the parties playing on peoples fears on immigration.
Immigration is a good thing when it's controlled, but to open the floodgates puts a strain on society, and as Fredrik said in his summer speech "I urge the people of Sweden to open up your hearts for the refugees, it will cost money, and this is why we as the sitting government can not promise any economic growth".

Meanwhile, the health care is on its knees, the care for the elderly is a undignifying mess, the infrastructure is near to collapse, the segregation grows everyday, riots are getting commonplace.

Now lets see what a new government can do, not much is my guess.



Stevanos

700 posts

137 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Finlandia said:
Immigration is a good thing when it's controlled, but to open the floodgates puts a strain on society, and as Fredrik said in his summer speech "I urge the people of Sweden to open up your hearts for the refugees, it will cost money, and this is why we as the sitting government can not promise any economic growth".

Meanwhile, the health care is on its knees, the care for the elderly is a undignifying mess, the infrastructure is near to collapse, the segregation grows everyday, riots are getting commonplace.

Now lets see what a new government can do, not much is my guess.
Can't speak for most of those things but infrastructure is very solid in Sweden.

FredClogs

14,041 posts

161 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
It's a weather thing.

I've lived and worked in some very cold places and people are naturally more collective, not to preserve heat, but it's just necessary in colder, harsher environments to draw support from wider societal resources. The warmer you get the more individual people become.

StevieBee

12,857 posts

255 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Whilst looking at other nations and taking cues from certain aspects of governance and society is a good thing, what one cannot do is compare one country with another and determine "this is what we need to be like' as so many factor impact on how a country operates many of which cannot be managed. The ultimate conclusion of that approach would be an entire planet with a single country, culture and society.






fido

16,794 posts

255 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
A happy society where being kind and intelligent is celebrated.
That's not the UK. There are kind and intelligent people but I feel like we're more the exception than the rule.

Finlandia

7,803 posts

231 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Stevanos said:
Can't speak for most of those things but infrastructure is very solid in Sweden.
Trains hardly go on time, if they go at all, so not really solid.

Rovinghawk

13,300 posts

158 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Foppo said:
What kind of society do you think we should live in or what we can do to inprove ours? If improvement is necessary.
A hippy society where being kind and intelligent is celebrated.
FTFY

FiF

44,041 posts

251 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
Stevanos said:
Finlandia said:
Immigration is a good thing when it's controlled, but to open the floodgates puts a strain on society, and as Fredrik said in his summer speech "I urge the people of Sweden to open up your hearts for the refugees, it will cost money, and this is why we as the sitting government can not promise any economic growth".

Meanwhile, the health care is on its knees, the care for the elderly is a undignifying mess, the infrastructure is near to collapse, the segregation grows everyday, riots are getting commonplace.

Now lets see what a new government can do, not much is my guess.
Can't speak for most of those things but infrastructure is very solid in Sweden.
Some of it is and just seems to work seamlessly in comparison to UK, say.

But can relate to and agree with much of what Finlandia posts above.

jshell

11,006 posts

205 months

Monday 22nd September 2014
quotequote all
FiF said:
Stevanos said:
Finlandia said:
Immigration is a good thing when it's controlled, but to open the floodgates puts a strain on society, and as Fredrik said in his summer speech "I urge the people of Sweden to open up your hearts for the refugees, it will cost money, and this is why we as the sitting government can not promise any economic growth".

Meanwhile, the health care is on its knees, the care for the elderly is a undignifying mess, the infrastructure is near to collapse, the segregation grows everyday, riots are getting commonplace.

Now lets see what a new government can do, not much is my guess.
Can't speak for most of those things but infrastructure is very solid in Sweden.
Some of it is and just seems to work seamlessly in comparison to UK, say.

But can relate to and agree with much of what Finlandia posts above.
Living in Norway, as I've said before, dispels some of the more romantic myths of living in a Socialist utopian society. And, despite the oil fund, social services are being ground down.