Scandinavian societies
Discussion
BillPeart said:
Would you say that the criminality is mainly, or as much, the Swedes, as the incomers? So, the Swedes less law abiding, 'controlled' and civilised as their reputation once had it? With A Swedish sister in law and nieces I find the changes very sad.
How do you define a Swede? These are Swedes with a Swedish passport and personnummer, rioting, torching cars and shooting in the streets. Are they Swedes? Yes.
Are they Swedish born? Many/most are yes.
Are they behaving in what would be described as a Swedish way? No.
Edited by Finlandia on Sunday 5th October 11:30
Finlandia said:
How do you define a Swede? These are Swedes with a Swedish passport and personnummer, rioting, torching cars and shooting in the streets.
Are they Swedes? Yes.
Are they Swedish born? Many/most are yes.
Are they behaving in what would be described as a Swedish way? No.
I meant native born Swedes like my family members rather than the immediate/this generation immigrants. Perhaps even, in my mind - but I wasn't thinking too deeply about this at the time of the original post - excluding from the definition first and second generation Swedes; Swedish Swedes, rather than Somalian Swedes, Iraqi Swedes et al. As with the reported lack of integration and 'resident' attitudes and behaviors from (some) first and second generation immigrant communities in the UK.Are they Swedes? Yes.
Are they Swedish born? Many/most are yes.
Are they behaving in what would be described as a Swedish way? No.
Edited by Finlandia on Sunday 5th October 11:30
By all accounts Swedish society has changed drastically, especially around crime, social disorder, civil behaviors etc.in just a decade or two.
My question was around whether this was a shift in society (as per the UK since the 60s) due to increasing liberalization, individuality, expectations of personal freedoms and rights (at the expense of responsibilities) etc. or economic pressures and the knock on effects of disenchantment, amongst Swedish youth (defined as above). Or the lack of integration and lack of belief in older Swedish values amongst the more recent incomers, exacerbated by feelings of isolation, disgruntlement, lack of opportunity etc.
And I realize that some 'native' Swedes have been involved in shootings and attacks on immigrants, as I also know of the increase in extreme 'right-wing' parties, cliques and gangs.
BillPeart said:
I meant native born Swedes like my family members rather than the immediate/this generation immigrants. Perhaps even, in my mind - but I wasn't thinking too deeply about this at the time of the original post - excluding from the definition first and second generation Swedes; Swedish Swedes, rather than Somalian Swedes, Iraqi Swedes et al. As with the reported lack of integration and 'resident' attitudes and behaviors from (some) first and second generation immigrant communities in the UK.
By all accounts Swedish society has changed drastically, especially around crime, social disorder, civil behaviors etc.in just a decade or two.
My question was around whether this was a shift in society (as per the UK since the 60s) due to increasing liberalization, individuality, expectations of personal freedoms and rights (at the expense of responsibilities) etc. or economic pressures and the knock on effects of disenchantment, amongst Swedish youth (defined as above). Or the lack of integration and lack of belief in older Swedish values amongst the more recent incomers, exacerbated by feelings of isolation, disgruntlement, lack of opportunity etc.
And I realize that some 'native' Swedes have been involved in shootings and attacks on immigrants, as I also know of the increase in extreme 'right-wing' parties, cliques and gangs.
The problems we see in Sweden are very complex, and they aren't helped by the total lack of discussion or political debate. By all accounts Swedish society has changed drastically, especially around crime, social disorder, civil behaviors etc.in just a decade or two.
My question was around whether this was a shift in society (as per the UK since the 60s) due to increasing liberalization, individuality, expectations of personal freedoms and rights (at the expense of responsibilities) etc. or economic pressures and the knock on effects of disenchantment, amongst Swedish youth (defined as above). Or the lack of integration and lack of belief in older Swedish values amongst the more recent incomers, exacerbated by feelings of isolation, disgruntlement, lack of opportunity etc.
And I realize that some 'native' Swedes have been involved in shootings and attacks on immigrants, as I also know of the increase in extreme 'right-wing' parties, cliques and gangs.
If one expresses concerns, which are valid, you get branded as a racist and rejected and silenced by the society, as happened with 800,000 voters of one party in the recent elections. The danger with this is of course the birth of another Ausonius (lasermannen) or Mangs (Malmö shooter) or even another Breivik. There is a strong left wing fraction in Sweden, that is very dangerous not only for the democracy, but also for non democratic actions like shooting, stabbing and threatening people as well as politicians. There is also a strong, but quite small right wing fraction that is equally dangerous, but far from as vocal and acting as the left. Both extremist sides are however very dangerous, and this is before even touching subjects like ISIS (or what they call themselves this week) fractions operating in Sweden.
Sweden is one of the most liberal, equal and open countries in the world, or at least once was. Some of the newly arrived, and by all means even 2nd or 3rd generation Swedish born immigrants are indoctrinated (for lack of a better word) with an old religious view that is the polar opposite to the official Swedish stand. This causes friction, "old" Swedes see it as a sell out of their values when policians in their PC madness stumble over each other in their efforts to please the newly arrived voters, sorry immigrants, and the "new" Swedes see the old values as a sign of weakness and a totally unacceptable way of life.
Then there is the issue of how many people are too many, how many can be taken care of by the state that has in true socialistic fashion controlled the population for 50 odd years. How many people can be housed for a start, where to find housing for a totally new family composition (5 to 15 children in one family is commonplace), schools, healthcare, pensions and so on, everything costs, and money is tight.
Thank you for the reply. Interesting to hear about it from someone there rather than just as a visitor like myself. Pretty much as I expected it to be and as family have said.
The right wing nut jobs and neo-Nazis seem to get a lot of the press whilst the left wing agitators you refer to don't seem to, or not in negative tones. I have heard of local police, prosecutors, press and others who have raised concerns about immigration or the actions of criminals from immigrant communities (and sure, the Swedes have enough multi-generation bad-eggs of their own, as do pretty much all societies) being threatened, stalked and harassed and branded on web sites, in the press, magazines etc. and some even losing their jobs. Political correctness or more sinister?
The right wing nut jobs and neo-Nazis seem to get a lot of the press whilst the left wing agitators you refer to don't seem to, or not in negative tones. I have heard of local police, prosecutors, press and others who have raised concerns about immigration or the actions of criminals from immigrant communities (and sure, the Swedes have enough multi-generation bad-eggs of their own, as do pretty much all societies) being threatened, stalked and harassed and branded on web sites, in the press, magazines etc. and some even losing their jobs. Political correctness or more sinister?
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