Discussion
mrmr96 said:
No, as it stands the MP's will get the payrise stated. They will have to abolish IPSA to stop it I think.
Besides which, that isn't the reason for the strike, it's the answer to the question you asked.
All three of the main parties have stated that they will vote against the rise. It is the reasoning of the OP for the strike that why can't they have more than 1% when MP's are getting it.Besides which, that isn't the reason for the strike, it's the answer to the question you asked.
The problem with the NHS isn't under funding, it's over provision of services.
Much of what the NHS do should not be available under the NHS, eg all cosmetic procedures. It should return to the fundamental of treating an illness or accidental injury.
We need to accept that life is not as valuable as we think it is, and it is inappropriate to expect tens of thousands of pounds to be spent prolonging it for a relatively short time. If you want that, use your own money.
Much of what the NHS do should not be available under the NHS, eg all cosmetic procedures. It should return to the fundamental of treating an illness or accidental injury.
We need to accept that life is not as valuable as we think it is, and it is inappropriate to expect tens of thousands of pounds to be spent prolonging it for a relatively short time. If you want that, use your own money.
crankedup said:
The only bully boy involved is the Tory led Government. It is their mantra to make every attempt to keep ordinary hard working decent people struggle in daily life. They rely upon the good will of service industries to do the right thing for those that they serve.
So naivePurpleMoonlight said:
The problem with the NHS isn't under funding, it's over provision of services.
The problem with the NHS isn't under funding, you're correct. The problem is the way the funds are wasted.If you got rid of all the extra layers of management and other bureaucracy that exist within the NHS they'd be able to offer better services and probably still have money left over to pay for extra staff.
Godalmighty83 said:
The NHS strikers can speak to me when they have had 3 years of paycuts and the only contribution to their pensions is what they pay in directly.
My OH and much of our social circle work in the NHS.As much as I feel she works hard for her pay I see it from both sides. Job security is still high in the NHS. In my job at one time in the last 3 years we lost 1/3 of our staff to redundancy and only now are we recovering. I've only had 1 pay rise in that time too. My pension is part funded by my employer but no way near the level of my OHs.I still think however that the majority of front line NHS workers do it because they want to help people and its important that those kinds of people are properly rewarded.
Chicken said:
I'm massively underpaid for the job I do
I'm sorry to break it to you, but everyone on the planet feels the same way.Chicken said:
when the last set of pay 'rises' was announced it was rather galling to learn that MPs had been offered such a huge rise.
So it's about what others might get, ie it's based on jealousy. Note the fact that outside the NHS there have been pay freezes, job losses, etc.Chicken said:
I think I will probably strike (if it gets that far)
Why not just quit and go where the grass is greener? Because you're better paid where you are than you would be anywhere else. Based on that, I have little sympathy for your position.mph1977 said:
steveT350C said:
Chicken said:
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29343090
UNISON is the first union to announce, but I expect Unite and the others to come out soon.
I work frontline in the NHS, and I don't know how I feel about this.
On one hand, I'm massively underpaid for the job I do, so when the last set of pay 'rises' was announced it was rather galling to learn that MPs had been offered such a huge rise.
On the other hand, I don't like bully boy techniques, and I do worry about the effect this will have on patients.
I know PH is a capitalist hot bed, so I'm expecting to be shot to pieces, but I think I will probably strike (if it gets that far)
Hi James,UNISON is the first union to announce, but I expect Unite and the others to come out soon.
I work frontline in the NHS, and I don't know how I feel about this.
On one hand, I'm massively underpaid for the job I do, so when the last set of pay 'rises' was announced it was rather galling to learn that MPs had been offered such a huge rise.
On the other hand, I don't like bully boy techniques, and I do worry about the effect this will have on patients.
I know PH is a capitalist hot bed, so I'm expecting to be shot to pieces, but I think I will probably strike (if it gets that far)
Maybe you could elaborate on the actual job you do, and how much you get paid,holidays, paid sick days and other benefits you get etc. This may sound harsh but will put things into context for all the powerfully built company directors on PH who generate all the tax revenues that ultimately pay your wages.
Paramedics and ODPs can enter with a foundation degree / DipHE for the moment ( these represent 2/3rds of a degree)
in my previous post in this topic I linked to the 2014-15 pay scales
for bands 5-7 which covers the majority of none Medical HCP roles , Nights and saturdays attract a 30 % loading and Sundays / bank holidays attract 60 %
In acute hospitals and community settings You are paid for the planned length of shift , ambulance service road staff are paid over time if their shift runs overIF they aren;t going to have ot take compensatory time off the next day to allow for the 11 hour daily rest required by the EWTD. In many trustsd overtime is banned and any extra shifts are worked for the underlying plain rate on an additional bank contract. IUt is enitrely routine to do up to an houer of unpaid and un recognised work each day to complete mandatory documentation. Most Mandatory training is undertaken unpaid in your own time, many other training opportunities deemed essential or highly desirable to the service are undertaken in your own time with limited funding support from employers.
NHS standard annual leave terms are 27 + 8 days on entry , with additional 2 days at 5 and 10 years of service .
sick pay is as standard 1 month full pay and one month half pay, rising over the first five years of service to 6 months full and 6 months half
resetting your sick pay after prolonged absence requires up to a year with out absence
Attendnace management polices are increasingly used within the NHS and people are routinely sanctioned up to dismissal for having excessive absence ( usually based on number of episodes or bradford score type calculations - which creates some perverse incentives to stay off work !, as you can't 'link' periods of absence ), even if this is due to a protected characteristic under the disability disrcimination provisions of the equality act.
Merely slowing the rise in spending on the NHS is "heartless Tory cuts". I have bad news for the OP and with the deficit falling only slowly even if Labour get back in the party days are not going to be here again.
Talk of 1% pay rises in the public sector should be taken with a pinch of salt. Most jobs have grades where you get virtually an automatic pay rise every few years for doing the same job, on top of the stated % pay rises.
We moved from a situation pre-labour where the public sector were often underpaid compared to the private for equivalent standard of workers, but made up for it with greater job security and benefits (principally pensions). To one where in most of the country they are paid more than the private sector...and have greater job security and benefits.
As with the Teachers they can strike all they want, but there isn't any more money and claims to be underpaid are wearing very thin and are usually reliant on stating starting salaries rather than the actual salaries the majority are paid.
Talk of 1% pay rises in the public sector should be taken with a pinch of salt. Most jobs have grades where you get virtually an automatic pay rise every few years for doing the same job, on top of the stated % pay rises.
We moved from a situation pre-labour where the public sector were often underpaid compared to the private for equivalent standard of workers, but made up for it with greater job security and benefits (principally pensions). To one where in most of the country they are paid more than the private sector...and have greater job security and benefits.
As with the Teachers they can strike all they want, but there isn't any more money and claims to be underpaid are wearing very thin and are usually reliant on stating starting salaries rather than the actual salaries the majority are paid.
steveT350C said:
Hi James,
Maybe you could elaborate on the actual job you do, and how much you get paid,holidays, paid sick days and other benefits you get etc. This may sound harsh but will put things into context for all the powerfully built company directors on PH who generate all the tax revenues that ultimately pay your wages.
I am employed as an Emergency Care Assistant, working in an Ambulance Trust.Maybe you could elaborate on the actual job you do, and how much you get paid,holidays, paid sick days and other benefits you get etc. This may sound harsh but will put things into context for all the powerfully built company directors on PH who generate all the tax revenues that ultimately pay your wages.
In this role I either assist ambulance clinicians (paramedics etc) with treating patients, or I treat patients myself as part of a dual ECA crew.
I am expected to work a 5 on/4 off rota consisting of 2 early 10hour shifts, 2 late 10hour shifts, and one 10hour night shift. Every twelve weeks I do a 3 week 'relief' period where I will be working anywhere in the county.
I am expected to drive £125k worth of vehicle, under emergency conditions, whilst maintains comms with control, hospital etc. I am also expected to enter potentially volatile situations with little or no warnings or information; and with no protective equipment.
Despite the fact that I am exposed to all sorts of nasty illnesses and have been covered in s
t, piss, vomit and blood plenty of times, as well as already having a dodgy back from lifting people up when they cant do it themselves, Ihave a sickness policy that mph1977 stated earlier, and its crap.I have dealt with major accidents, dead babies, knife wielding schizophrenics, and aggressive drunks.
I have been bitten, punched, kicked and threatened.
For this I get £16,271 per year.
I love my job, and I don't want to go to the private sector. I know I could earn more if I got another job (all the service could), but if we did that who would arrive when you call for help?
I don't want tons of cash, but a payrise that actually means I have more money would be nice.
To the person who said that the NHS is not being cut, I would suggest you come and work a shift then see if you still agree. Most of our ambulances have more than 300,000 miles on them, and will no longer reach 70mph, our equipment is falling apart, there are massive queues to hand over at hospital because there aren't enough nurses, there is no out of hours mental health services because they have lost their funding.
Chicken said:
steveT350C said:
Hi James,
Maybe you could elaborate on the actual job you do, and how much you get paid,holidays, paid sick days and other benefits you get etc. This may sound harsh but will put things into context for all the powerfully built company directors on PH who generate all the tax revenues that ultimately pay your wages.
I am employed as an Emergency Care Assistant, working in an Ambulance Trust.Maybe you could elaborate on the actual job you do, and how much you get paid,holidays, paid sick days and other benefits you get etc. This may sound harsh but will put things into context for all the powerfully built company directors on PH who generate all the tax revenues that ultimately pay your wages.
In this role I either assist ambulance clinicians (paramedics etc) with treating patients, or I treat patients myself as part of a dual ECA crew.
I am expected to work a 5 on/4 off rota consisting of 2 early 10hour shifts, 2 late 10hour shifts, and one 10hour night shift. Every twelve weeks I do a 3 week 'relief' period where I will be working anywhere in the county.
I am expected to drive £125k worth of vehicle, under emergency conditions, whilst maintains comms with control, hospital etc. I am also expected to enter potentially volatile situations with little or no warnings or information; and with no protective equipment.
Despite the fact that I am exposed to all sorts of nasty illnesses and have been covered in s
t, piss, vomit and blood plenty of times, as well as already having a dodgy back from lifting people up when they cant do it themselves, Ihave a sickness policy that mph1977 stated earlier, and its crap.I have dealt with major accidents, dead babies, knife wielding schizophrenics, and aggressive drunks.
I have been bitten, punched, kicked and threatened.
For this I get £16,271 per year.
I love my job, and I don't want to go to the private sector. I know I could earn more if I got another job (all the service could), but if we did that who would arrive when you call for help?
I don't want tons of cash, but a payrise that actually means I have more money would be nice.
To the person who said that the NHS is not being cut, I would suggest you come and work a shift then see if you still agree. Most of our ambulances have more than 300,000 miles on them, and will no longer reach 70mph, our equipment is falling apart, there are massive queues to hand over at hospital because there aren't enough nurses, there is no out of hours mental health services because they have lost their funding.
It has always been my opinion that A and E services should be the number 1 priority for NHS funding.
Just heard that West Middlesex Hospital is on a code black due to staff shortages.
Chicken said:
I am employed as an Emergency Care Assistant, working in an Ambulance Trust.
In this role I either assist ambulance clinicians (paramedics etc) with treating patients, or I treat patients myself as part of a dual ECA crew.
I am expected to work a 5 on/4 off rota consisting of 2 early 10hour shifts, 2 late 10hour shifts, and one 10hour night shift. Every twelve weeks I do a 3 week 'relief' period where I will be working anywhere in the county.
I am expected to drive £125k worth of vehicle, under emergency conditions, whilst maintains comms with control, hospital etc. I am also expected to enter potentially volatile situations with little or no warnings or information; and with no protective equipment.
Despite the fact that I am exposed to all sorts of nasty illnesses and have been covered in st, piss, vomit and blood plenty of times, as well as already having a dodgy back from lifting people up when they cant do it themselves, Ihave a sickness policy that mph1977 stated earlier, and its crap.
I have dealt with major accidents, dead babies, knife wielding schizophrenics, and aggressive drunks.
I have been bitten, punched, kicked and threatened.
For this I get £16,271 per year.
Wow, I didn't expect the pay to be so low, thanks for opening my eyes.In this role I either assist ambulance clinicians (paramedics etc) with treating patients, or I treat patients myself as part of a dual ECA crew.
I am expected to work a 5 on/4 off rota consisting of 2 early 10hour shifts, 2 late 10hour shifts, and one 10hour night shift. Every twelve weeks I do a 3 week 'relief' period where I will be working anywhere in the county.
I am expected to drive £125k worth of vehicle, under emergency conditions, whilst maintains comms with control, hospital etc. I am also expected to enter potentially volatile situations with little or no warnings or information; and with no protective equipment.
Despite the fact that I am exposed to all sorts of nasty illnesses and have been covered in s
t, piss, vomit and blood plenty of times, as well as already having a dodgy back from lifting people up when they cant do it themselves, Ihave a sickness policy that mph1977 stated earlier, and its crap.I have dealt with major accidents, dead babies, knife wielding schizophrenics, and aggressive drunks.
I have been bitten, punched, kicked and threatened.
For this I get £16,271 per year.
https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advic...
This states the hours are 37.5 pw and not 50 as you claim.
It also states your salary is the lowest and can rise considerably, presumably based on experience and performance.
I don't doubt you have a stressfull and difficult job at times but at least tell the truth when posting.
Oh, and 35 days holiday inc. bank holidays. Thats 13% of the working year.
This states the hours are 37.5 pw and not 50 as you claim.
It also states your salary is the lowest and can rise considerably, presumably based on experience and performance.
I don't doubt you have a stressfull and difficult job at times but at least tell the truth when posting.
Oh, and 35 days holiday inc. bank holidays. Thats 13% of the working year.
Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Thursday 25th September 08:57
PurpleMoonlight said:
https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advic...
This states the hours are 37.5 pw and not 50 as you claim.
It also states your salary is the lowest and can rise considerably, presumably based on experience and performance.
I don't doubt you have a stressfull and difficult job at times but at least tell the truth when posting.
Oh, and 35 days holiday inc. bank holidays. Thats 13% of the working year.
James states he works a rolling 9 day rota over a number of weeks with the relief weeks every so often. In that 9 day period you work 50 hours over 6 consecutive days ( as the last shift is a night - spanning days 5and 6 )This states the hours are 37.5 pw and not 50 as you claim.
It also states your salary is the lowest and can rise considerably, presumably based on experience and performance.
I don't doubt you have a stressfull and difficult job at times but at least tell the truth when posting.
Oh, and 35 days holiday inc. bank holidays. Thats 13% of the working year.
Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Thursday 25th September 08:57
ECAs are banded as band 3 there is no progression as an ECA once they reach the top increment of band 3, progression for an ECA is to go away to Study to become a paramedic - some are 'lucky' and get to study on top of continuing to work full time as an ECA / employee student.
Ambulance service unsocial hours payments are different to the rest if the NHS as pre AFC they didn't get them because the old shift allowances had been sold back for higher basic in the 1980s
PurpleMoonlight said:
The problem with the NHS isn't under funding, it's over provision of services.
Much of what the NHS do should not be available under the NHS, eg all cosmetic procedures. It should return to the fundamental of treating an illness or accidental injury.
very few purely cosmetic procedures are done on the nHS and many of those ( e.g. pinning back sticky out ears are cheap and quick) Much of what the NHS do should not be available under the NHS, eg all cosmetic procedures. It should return to the fundamental of treating an illness or accidental injury.
the vast majority of Cosmeticproceduresare adaptations of Reconstructive surgery - this is what the NHS trains it;splastic surgeons in primarily. ditto things like nose jobs - they are an adaption of a procedure used in the treatment of injury or congenital variation which causes problems
PurpleMoonlight said:
We need to accept that life is not as valuable as we think it is, and it is inappropriate to expect tens of thousands of pounds to be spent prolonging it for a relatively short time. If you want that, use your own money.
hence the endless debates over whether the heily fail's latest cancer wonder drug is worth the money it costs when used in palliative treatment ...Chicken said:
Ihave a sickness policy that mph1977 stated earlier, and its crap.
I accept your point that the salary is low, but that sickness policy is incredibly generous compared to what the rest of us get.35 days' holiday rising to 37 then 39 is pretty generous, too.
What value have you placed on job security & the guaranteed pension? If talking about remuneration, surely the whole package has to be considered.
Godalmighty83 said:
The NHS strikers can speak to me when they have had 3 years of paycuts and the only contribution to their pensions is what they pay in directly.
what does your poor choice of employer have to do with anything the NHS has had a number of years of pay freezes , this dis regards those who at one or more points i nthe past 10 years have been downgraded at the whim of management as the correct grade for the job they are doing per the JE system is not what the Management thought it would be ...
As i've explained in another recent post incremental pay is not a cost , it is a saving when staff are paid less than the 'the rate for the job' for up to 6 years - you can't jump to the second gateway even if you meet the competencies years before you would reach the second gateway by annual incremental progression.
incremental pay also stops after 6- 9 years depending on the Job evaluation derived band band a role is in . the pyramid narrows band 5 -6 for most roles (though not especially noticably for midwives and pharmacists) and definitely at band 7 and above .
For most Nurses and AHPs there is no assurance of getting beyond the top increment of band 5 and even then should you dare to have a career break of be long term sick to the point where your contract is terminated , trusts have the option of taking you back to a lower pay point if you re-entre the NHS.
mph1977 said:
what does your poor choice of employer have to do with anything
If you intend striking, we could ask you the exact same question. mph1977 said:
incremental pay is not a cost , it is a saving when staff are paid less than the 'the rate for the job' for up to 6 years
That's a highly biased interpretation, to say the least. mph1977 said:
should you dare to have a career break of be long term sick to the point where your contract is terminated , trusts have the option of taking you back to a lower pay point if you re-entre the NHS.
Outside the NHS it would be considered extremely generous to get a job back at all after enough sick leave to exceed even the allowances that the NHS gives. But you won't see it that way, obviously.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff