Discussion
ucb said:
The NHS pension scheme produces a net surplus for the exchequer
Maybe, temporarily on a cashflow basis, but that ignores the cost of accrual.Based on the above, it's quite clear you don't understand what you are talking about - this is the same nonsense frequently trotted out by the public sector and their unions - either because they are deliberately trying to mislead the general public or are just ignorant about the cost and valuation of DB pension schemes.
Which one are you?
Or alternatively 'do the math'....
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
But anyway - I live in the South, with prices for everything, including property, through the roof.
So - what will my starting salary be, for such huge responsibility, after 3 years of training?
NHS band 5, Year 1....
£21,500.
Plus a few more quid for 'antisocial' hours...
I hope that maybe, some of you might now view frontline clinical staff, with a wee bit more of a softer focus???!!!
Dont take this the wrong way, but do you actually think the starting salary for a paramedic should be more? So - what will my starting salary be, for such huge responsibility, after 3 years of training?
NHS band 5, Year 1....
£21,500.
Plus a few more quid for 'antisocial' hours...
I hope that maybe, some of you might now view frontline clinical staff, with a wee bit more of a softer focus???!!!
Factor pension into that its £30k, factor job security into that, factor assured pay rises year on year, factor 32 days holiday pay into that, factor in overtime pay. Sounds like the kind of pay/ benefits most graduates would die for.
nikaiyo2 said:
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
But anyway - I live in the South, with prices for everything, including property, through the roof.
So - what will my starting salary be, for such huge responsibility, after 3 years of training?
NHS band 5, Year 1....
£21,500.
Plus a few more quid for 'antisocial' hours...
I hope that maybe, some of you might now view frontline clinical staff, with a wee bit more of a softer focus???!!!
Dont take this the wrong way, but do you actually think the starting salary for a paramedic should be more? So - what will my starting salary be, for such huge responsibility, after 3 years of training?
NHS band 5, Year 1....
£21,500.
Plus a few more quid for 'antisocial' hours...
I hope that maybe, some of you might now view frontline clinical staff, with a wee bit more of a softer focus???!!!
Factor pension into that its £30k, factor job security into that, factor assured pay rises year on year, factor 32 days holiday pay into that, factor in overtime pay. Sounds like the kind of pay/ benefits most graduates would die for.
And whilst this may be seen as irrelevant to some people, that wage in the South East is really not much.
Ganglandboss said:
crankedup said:
The only bully boy involved is the Tory led Government. It is their mantra to make every attempt to keep ordinary hard working decent people struggle in daily life. They rely upon the good will of service industries to do the right thing for those that they serve.
Have you any evidence to back this horse-sh*te up?
te. Reward the top earners with a tax cut whilst cutting the paltry benefits that we provided to the disabled, via a French Company that has since been discredited for its practices and motives regarding this procedure. Thankfully we will see the back of them soon.
sidicks said:
ucb said:
The NHS pension scheme produces a net surplus for the exchequer
Maybe, temporarily on a cashflow basis, but that ignores the cost of accrual.Based on the above, it's quite clear you don't understand what you are talking about - this is the same nonsense frequently trotted out by the public sector and their unions - either because they are deliberately trying to mislead the general public or are just ignorant about the cost and valuation of DB pension schemes.
Which one are you?
Or alternatively 'do the math'....
why do you continue to deny that if various of the PS pension schemes which previous governments decided to have as PAYG , primarily because they want the surplus money to re-cycle in year without having to pay interest to the pension pot , are in surplus year on year and therefore if they were funded would have a far smaller , if any, deficeit than the Chicken little " there's eleventy three squillion unfunded PS pension liabilities"
mph1977 said:
and here you go again with your suppositions and Chicken little ' the sky is falling in' - the pension liabilities will never appear in the massive lump that the jealous and conspicuously ignorant anti PS pensions faction portray they will.
You previously made a comment (when discussing the operation of the NHS) that people who didn't know what they were talking about shouldn't comment:mph1977 said:
...as usual, a lack of understanding of a system does not preclude the passing of expert opinion.
I suggest you take your own advice regarding pensions as you've repeatedly demonstrated you are as ignorant as they come.Regardless of when pensions are paid, they still need to be paid for - that money has to come from the private sector / taxpayer (or are you still trying to deny this?)
mph1977 said:
why do you continue to deny that if various of the PS pension schemes which previous governments decided to have as PAYG , primarily because they want the surplus money to re-cycle in year without having to pay interest to the pension pot , are in surplus year on year and therefore if they were funded would have a far smaller , if any, deficeit than the Chicken little " there's eleventy three squillion unfunded PS pension liabilities"
Because that's blatantly untrue. But I wouldn't expect an NHS employee to understand that.Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 1st October 09:53
I Accept the pay that chicken and Ray have mentioned.
And on one hand its not a huge amount considering the job you have to do.
But i feel that people expect to earn more because they see the job being harder. For whatever reasons that may be.
The reality is that throughtout all private and public sectors, their are jobs that dont pay what people may expect upon qualifying.
And many qualify in certain fields, and cant even get a job.
The reality is that unless your misguided, you go into further education with the intention of getting a job. That you already know what it entails. And that includes salary etc.
To then qualify and complain , seems daft.
I appreciate some go into sectors, due to the love of the job and not the salary. But again once qualified i dont get why you then complain about the package and responsibilities that come with it.
When i qualified as an architect, it was at a low point in the building industry, and many after 7 years of university were faced with the prospect of no job. But its always been like this. And some had to go look for jobs in other industrys.
In the good times be benefit, in the bad times we dont.
And on one hand its not a huge amount considering the job you have to do.
But i feel that people expect to earn more because they see the job being harder. For whatever reasons that may be.
The reality is that throughtout all private and public sectors, their are jobs that dont pay what people may expect upon qualifying.
And many qualify in certain fields, and cant even get a job.
The reality is that unless your misguided, you go into further education with the intention of getting a job. That you already know what it entails. And that includes salary etc.
To then qualify and complain , seems daft.
I appreciate some go into sectors, due to the love of the job and not the salary. But again once qualified i dont get why you then complain about the package and responsibilities that come with it.
When i qualified as an architect, it was at a low point in the building industry, and many after 7 years of university were faced with the prospect of no job. But its always been like this. And some had to go look for jobs in other industrys.
In the good times be benefit, in the bad times we dont.
Hooli said:
Idiot - Are those wireless print servers any good?
Us - No, they don't work with DHCP let alone anything else
Idiot - Good, I've ordered 400 because they are cheap
Idiot - How many do we need?
Us - Thee, get five to make sure.
Idiot - I'll order 100 just in case.
Yet my daughter was here last night and saying that her colleague's laptop needs a new HDD. The internal service agreement with the Trust's IT department covers the labour, but she's been without her laptop for weeks as the £40 cost of the new HDD is stuck in a signature loop.Us - No, they don't work with DHCP let alone anything else
Idiot - Good, I've ordered 400 because they are cheap
Idiot - How many do we need?
Us - Thee, get five to make sure.
Idiot - I'll order 100 just in case.
nikaiyo2 said:
Dont take this the wrong way, but do you actually think the starting salary for a paramedic should be more?
Factor pension into that its £30k, factor job security into that, factor assured pay rises year on year, factor 32 days holiday pay into that, factor in overtime pay. Sounds like the kind of pay/ benefits most graduates would die for.
That's great, but none of benefits can be used to pay today's bills.Factor pension into that its £30k, factor job security into that, factor assured pay rises year on year, factor 32 days holiday pay into that, factor in overtime pay. Sounds like the kind of pay/ benefits most graduates would die for.
And are young NHS employees ever going to get their pension, or will is just keep moving away from them?
The snag with the Paramedic and related jobs is that people would do it for nothing. Indeed one of the Ambulance Trusts suggested asking recruits to work unpaid and pay for their own training.
sidicks said:
ucb said:
No, my opinion. Convince me I'm wrong
Do some basic maths (or understand the difference between cashflows and costs).Well, actually I didn't ask you but you have replied.
I looked at the NHSBSA statements for 2012-2013 and it stated that the NHS pension returned £1.1 billion to HMRC than paid out. So, now I have reached the end of my understanding. A more constructive response might have been to explain your statements in plain English (as we aren't using industry-specific terms).
Thanks for your clear patience and effort put into your reply
ucb said:
I looked at the NHSBSA statements for 2012-2013 and it stated that the NHS pension returned £1.1 billion to HMRC than paid out. So, now I have reached the end of my understanding. A more constructive response might have been to explain your statements in plain English .
Well just for openers, this 1.1 billion includes the employer's contribution, not just the employees'. ucb said:
I merely asked if you (being more expert in this field than I) might explain your statements.
Well, actually I didn't ask you but you have replied.
I looked at the NHSBSA statements for 2012-2013 and it stated that the NHS pension returned £1.1 billion to HMRC than paid out. So, now I have reached the end of my understanding. A more constructive response might have been to explain your statements in plain English (as we aren't using industry-specific terms).
Thanks for your clear patience and effort put into your reply
It's been discussed on numerous threads but the simple answer is that the true cost of the scheme is based on the 'cost of accrual' I.e. Each year a member's pension liability will increase due to:Well, actually I didn't ask you but you have replied.
I looked at the NHSBSA statements for 2012-2013 and it stated that the NHS pension returned £1.1 billion to HMRC than paid out. So, now I have reached the end of my understanding. A more constructive response might have been to explain your statements in plain English (as we aren't using industry-specific terms).
Thanks for your clear patience and effort put into your reply
- an extra years' service having been added
- a year closer to retirement (benefit closer to being paid out)
- increases in salary on which the pension is paid
- changes to economic assumptions e.g. Longevity, inflation, interest rates
The offset to this is the contribution paid (the member contribution is relatively small compared to the taxpayer subsidy).
None of the above is related to the benefits paid to other pensioners in that year.
I,e, the scheme might well be cashflow positive in the short term, but that doesn't reflect the true costs and relies on ever increasing employees and taxpayer contributions in the future (effectively a Bernie Madiff Ponzi scheme).
Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 1st October 11:27
Just a mention of a situation loosely connected to health care.
Life long pal of ours was taken seriously ill, so ill he was rushed into the hospital intensive care unit. He was fighting for his life and the next three days were touch and go. Happily, after receiving first class medical treatment he survived and was transferred into the general hospital to receive ongoing treatment regaining reasonable health for several weeks prior to discharge.
Doesn't take much imagination to understand that his wife and family were under stress and worry during his hospitalisation.
Recuperating at home the hospital presented the bill for his treatment, a very very large bill indeed. Treatment and health care is expensive! Apparently our pals insurance policy to cover such eventualities was presented to the accountants several days after the official time scale deadline for such policies to be presented.
The family had to fight tooth and nail for months in their attempts to have the insurance company re-consider its position. Complete and utter stressful nightmare of a bill which would have bankrupt them if they had to pay from their personal funds. Just what the doctor order during a recovery period! A happy ending when the insurance company finally conceded that it was being pedantic and unreasonable.
Thankfully we in the U.K. do not operate on the same basis as France, although in France some health care is free of charge at point of delivery.
Four years later our friend is still doing well.
Life long pal of ours was taken seriously ill, so ill he was rushed into the hospital intensive care unit. He was fighting for his life and the next three days were touch and go. Happily, after receiving first class medical treatment he survived and was transferred into the general hospital to receive ongoing treatment regaining reasonable health for several weeks prior to discharge.
Doesn't take much imagination to understand that his wife and family were under stress and worry during his hospitalisation.
Recuperating at home the hospital presented the bill for his treatment, a very very large bill indeed. Treatment and health care is expensive! Apparently our pals insurance policy to cover such eventualities was presented to the accountants several days after the official time scale deadline for such policies to be presented.
The family had to fight tooth and nail for months in their attempts to have the insurance company re-consider its position. Complete and utter stressful nightmare of a bill which would have bankrupt them if they had to pay from their personal funds. Just what the doctor order during a recovery period! A happy ending when the insurance company finally conceded that it was being pedantic and unreasonable.
Thankfully we in the U.K. do not operate on the same basis as France, although in France some health care is free of charge at point of delivery.
Four years later our friend is still doing well.
Sheepshanks said:
Hooli said:
Idiot - Are those wireless print servers any good?
Us - No, they don't work with DHCP let alone anything else
Idiot - Good, I've ordered 400 because they are cheap
Idiot - How many do we need?
Us - Thee, get five to make sure.
Idiot - I'll order 100 just in case.
Yet my daughter was here last night and saying that her colleague's laptop needs a new HDD. The internal service agreement with the Trust's IT department covers the labour, but she's been without her laptop for weeks as the £40 cost of the new HDD is stuck in a signature loop.Us - No, they don't work with DHCP let alone anything else
Idiot - Good, I've ordered 400 because they are cheap
Idiot - How many do we need?
Us - Thee, get five to make sure.
Idiot - I'll order 100 just in case.
te system that's only just starting to work two years later but can't spent £12 on a roller to fix a printer.I'm damn sure most things cost more in man hours to get approved than the actual part costs.
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