Hong kong protests - Huge

[crankedup]

davepoth said:

Jimbeaux said:

Tens of thousands? This is why the Chinese need a larger military, to keep their own people in line. They seem surprised that only vetted canidates are allowed to run for Hong Kong office. Who will admit to believing that Hong Kong would be allowed to "do their own thing"?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/28/world/asia/china-hon...

They aren't surprised. They're acting surprised. Two entirely different things.

China doesn't want a pluralist democracy in a Special Administrative Region of China, because it'll be much harder to hide than the massacre in Tienanmen Square all those years ago. If they say to Hong Kong "All right then, elect who you like", you can guarantee it won't be a Communist, and that won't go unnoticed on the mainland. There's a lot more dissent there than we ever see, it's just that China keeps a tight lid on it.

Completely agree, its oppression in its purist from with the fortunate elite able to enjoy the spoils of capitalism.

[GAjon]

My youngest sons in HK teaching, just texed and said the crowds are gathering again now, more than weekend.

[crankedup]

Zod said:

davepoth said:

I think it will tanks. They won't give in, and there's no chance of increasing autonomy.

Send in tanks and they'll kill the golden goose. HK's financial prosperity will not survive a military crackdown.

Add to that the fact China is currently facing financial turmoil and its starts to look more complex for the Chinese Government to deal with. Brute force will be their answer in quelling this irritating uprising.

[Fittster]

crankedup said:

davepoth said:

Jimbeaux said:

Tens of thousands? This is why the Chinese need a larger military, to keep their own people in line. They seem surprised that only vetted canidates are allowed to run for Hong Kong office. Who will admit to believing that Hong Kong would be allowed to "do their own thing"?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/28/world/asia/china-hon...

They aren't surprised. They're acting surprised. Two entirely different things.

China doesn't want a pluralist democracy in a Special Administrative Region of China, because it'll be much harder to hide than the massacre in Tienanmen Square all those years ago. If they say to Hong Kong "All right then, elect who you like", you can guarantee it won't be a Communist, and that won't go unnoticed on the mainland. There's a lot more dissent there than we ever see, it's just that China keeps a tight lid on it.

Completely agree, its oppression in its purist from with the fortunate elite able to enjoy the spoils of capitalism.

Compare the success of China to India over the last 50 years. Has any government raised the living standards of so many so quickly?

[Fittster]

Zod said:

davepoth said:

I think it will tanks. They won't give in, and there's no chance of increasing autonomy.

Send in tanks and they'll kill the golden goose. HK's financial prosperity will not survive a military crackdown.

Why not?

It's not as if the financial services industry will refuse to do business with countries that have a poor human rights records.

[BlackLabel]

[FredClogs]

Fittster said:

Zod said:

davepoth said:

I think it will tanks. They won't give in, and there's no chance of increasing autonomy.

Send in tanks and they'll kill the golden goose. HK's financial prosperity will not survive a military crackdown.

Why not?

It's not as if the financial services industry will refuse to do business with countries that have a poor human rights records.

I agree, ex pats are willing to live and work in Saudi, UAE, Dubai etc... The instability will cause concern but they'll still be massive money to be made and deals to be done and if it drops the ridiculous price of HK real estate then it's probably a win win.

Talk of the Chinese governments militaristic oppression and harking back to Tienanmen square is a bit unfair and disingenous, they were different times and different people in charge, but you have to ask yourself quite how other countries would deal with revolutionary or counter revolutionary ideals on the scale of those that led up to Tienanmen during that time of cold war etc... it's not all black and white, 100,000 students occupied the square for months and there was a lot of angst and deliberation involved in sending the tanks in, more I dare say than would have occurred in some "democracies" to be fair about it.

[crankedup]

Fittster said:

crankedup said:

davepoth said:

Jimbeaux said:

Tens of thousands? This is why the Chinese need a larger military, to keep their own people in line. They seem surprised that only vetted canidates are allowed to run for Hong Kong office. Who will admit to believing that Hong Kong would be allowed to "do their own thing"?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/28/world/asia/china-hon...

They aren't surprised. They're acting surprised. Two entirely different things.

China doesn't want a pluralist democracy in a Special Administrative Region of China, because it'll be much harder to hide than the massacre in Tienanmen Square all those years ago. If they say to Hong Kong "All right then, elect who you like", you can guarantee it won't be a Communist, and that won't go unnoticed on the mainland. There's a lot more dissent there than we ever see, it's just that China keeps a tight lid on it.

Completely agree, its oppression in its purist from with the fortunate elite able to enjoy the spoils of capitalism.

Compare the success of China to India over the last 50 years. Has any government raised the living standards of so many so quickly?

Its a very fair point living standards have improved dramatically. But not across the entire spectrum of Society in either of the two Countries you mention. Never has a split down the middle of wealth / poverty been so completely exposed. It simply amounts to these Countries allowing gross exploitation of workers to enable massive cheap exports, of which we have enjoyed in huge price reductions of goods. From clothing to white goods through to luxury items such as 65" all singing and dancing television sets. Its all based upon low cost production methods. India is quickly following the model china is / has used but at some point the cheap goods exported will not compete with more expensive but wholly much higher standards of quality. That is where China is now, German and U.K. markets are responding with quality not quantity.

[Zod]

Fittster said:

Zod said:

davepoth said:

I think it will tanks. They won't give in, and there's no chance of increasing autonomy.

Send in tanks and they'll kill the golden goose. HK's financial prosperity will not survive a military crackdown.

Why not?

It's not as if the financial services industry will refuse to do business with countries that have a poor human rights records.

It's not about who you do business with, but about the climate of the place where the financial services industry sits.

[davepoth]

Zod said:

Fittster said:

Zod said:

davepoth said:

I think it will tanks. They won't give in, and there's no chance of increasing autonomy.

Send in tanks and they'll kill the golden goose. HK's financial prosperity will not survive a military crackdown.

Why not?

It's not as if the financial services industry will refuse to do business with countries that have a poor human rights records.

It's not about who you do business with, but about the climate of the place where the financial services industry sits.

Indeed. Capital is mobile; the whole economy could move to Singapore or Kuala Lumpur or wherever decided to give the biggest tax breaks, by the end of the year.

[Fittster]

davepoth said:

Zod said:

Fittster said:

Zod said:

davepoth said:

I think it will tanks. They won't give in, and there's no chance of increasing autonomy.

Send in tanks and they'll kill the golden goose. HK's financial prosperity will not survive a military crackdown.

Why not?

It's not as if the financial services industry will refuse to do business with countries that have a poor human rights records.

It's not about who you do business with, but about the climate of the place where the financial services industry sits.

Indeed. Capital is mobile; the whole economy could move to Singapore or Kuala Lumpur or wherever decided to give the biggest tax breaks, by the end of the year.

If you google "Human Rights" + either Singapore or Kuala Lumpur you don't exactly see results that would please a Guardian reader.

[Zod]

Fittster said:

If you google "Human Rights" + either Singapore or Kuala Lumpur you don't exactly see results that would please a Guardian reader.

But they don't shoot people en masse.

[Fittster]

Zod said:

Fittster said:

If you google "Human Rights" + either Singapore or Kuala Lumpur you don't exactly see results that would please a Guardian reader.

But they don't shoot people en masse.

Did financial services industry leave China after Tiananmen Square? Nothing has really changed since that event so has the financial services industry decided it didn't matter?

[Magog]

Fittster said:

Did financial services industry leave China after Tiananmen Square? Nothing has really changed since that event so has the financial services industry decided it didn't matter?

HSBC moved it's headquarters from Hong Kong to London in the 90s in run up to the transfer of power to China, so quite possibly the answer to your first question is 'yes', and your second question 'no'.

[Mermaid]

The UK Foreign Office said it was "concerned" by the heavy response in its former colony - but China has warned the international community not to "interfere".

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hua Chunying said: "Hong Kong is China's Hong Kong. Hong Kong is purely our internal affair.

"We are resolutely opposed to any foreign country using any method to interfere in China's internal affairs."

[davepoth]

Fittster said:

If you google "Human Rights" + either Singapore or Kuala Lumpur you don't exactly see results that would please a Guardian reader.

No, but they are a little bit better than China. Only a little bit, but they are.

[MiniMan64]

Mermaid said:

The UK Foreign Office said it was "concerned" by the heavy response in its former colony - but China has warned the international community not to "interfere".

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hua Chunying said: "Hong Kong is China's Hong Kong. Hong Kong is purely our internal affair.

"We are resolutely opposed to any foreign country using any method to interfere in China's internal affairs."

Is that diplo-speak for "fk off and mind your own business"?

[Mermaid]

Absolutely, no doubt the UK will want to send troops to protect the protestors against any attempts by China to suppress this peaceful protest.

[fido]

davepoth said:

No, but they are a little bit better than China. Only a little bit, but they are.

I'd say Singapore is in a whole different league to China. Malaysia has other problems, let's just say religion-wise.

Back to HK, the simple solution for China is to continue the 'one country, two systems' approach. They have created this problem in the first place by trying to vet candidates only last month.

[Mermaid]

Our other ex-colony - how long before they backtrack? when China starts selling US Treasury Bonds?

"White House spokesman John Earnest said the US was watching closely and supports the "aspirations of the Hong Kong people".