Labour stretches lead over Tories

[sjn2004]

Some very good points over the last few pages, however the Conservatives still have much to learn. Today at the conference guess what Boris said, A or B.

A - we need to look hard why people are moving to UKIP and leaving our party

or

B - people defect who from the Conservative's to UKIP have sex with vacuum cleaners.

….more votes just gone down the drain

[DJRC]

crankedup said:

DJRC said:

crankedup said:

DJRC said:

crankedup said:

Do not fret Ladies and Gentlemen, you can still enjoy Pistonheads from any corner of the globe that you care to depart to.The only hope is that Lib-Dems continue in coalition Government and moderate the worst excesses of Labour.

You haven't yet justified what worst excesses of Toryism they have moderated...

Turbo reckons the Lib-Dems HAVE stymied some Tory policy proposals, been a dead weight for them in fact, slowing down their progress in resolving the Countries problems. Looks like disagreement on all fronts.
Politics is subjective with no definitive answers that will satisfy all readers, I'm afraid it would be pointless preparing a list.

TB. The kid hasn't had an original thought ever since he first started quoting other bits of the internet in the original climate thread.

I asked •you• what worst excesses of toryism the lib dems have moderated. CMD isn't very Tory, in fact he is probably far more orange book lib dem than Tory, which is probably why he gets on so well with Cleggers. I suspect the same is true of Gorgeous George which is why he works well with Danny Alexander. Who incidentally I rate as a very competent guy.

We have a very wet centrist govt currently, its very very dovish and whilst I am more than happy to have a govt support mortgage payers than risk averse savers, the hawks do have fair points. For the wrong reasons but fair points. The Tories should have slashed and cut much much harder than they have done, they should have been much more surgical, prexise , detailed and organised in how they approached the defecit. CMD has very little proactive balls though so hates such a thing as sticking your neck out and leading. But I'll give praise and credit for Gorgeous George and I never thought Id say that in 2010. The weak link has come out of the last 4.5 yes with the most credit.

Edited by Big Al. on Monday 29th September 18:54

I would suggest that a Tory Government would not have introduced a lowered threshold to help those on low incomes, quite the opposite. Tories wanted to reduce the higher rate of tax to a lower number than actuality. You yourself suggesting that the Tories should have cut deeper, why haven't they, the steady hand of the Lib-Dems imo. But as is mentioned already, many Lib-Dems pronounce, as I have, but cannot really put many fingers on the actual proposals, the answer lies behind closed discussion doors of cabinet members, you know this. Bickering in public between the coalition would have destroyed any of that public confidence which was/is sorely needed in any Government. That is why the Tories have been moderate and why the coalition has succeeded, or at least stayed the course relatively well.
As for your prognosis on George, I too am pleasantly surprised how authoritative he has grown. And Danny has been the perfect partner, never swaying from the treasury line.

Lets keep in mind, much of what is said is opinion based upon what has or has not been brought to public knowledge.

Oh for the love of...
Is political theory, ideology or even history actually taught anymore or do ppl just pick it up off wiki?
The lower threshold tax thing is actually a very very traditional Tory policy according to ideology, theory and history. But hey, we aren't here to let facts get in the way of anything are we?

The Tories haven't cut deeper because that would!d require CMD A)leading on something and sticking his neck out on something requiring a spine and B) the Tories having a truely detailed plan at a strategic level. We have very much seen over the last 4-5yrs that hasn't been there. Strategically the first two yes were woeful beyond anything Gordon Brown did. Blair, the Dark Prince and Campbell would have eaten them for breakfast.

You seem proud of the idea that the lib dems might have prevented any austerity. This is absurd, there was almost no public spending austerity. There was almost no targeting, almost no planning, almost no detail, almost no precision. It was astoundingly bad politics and bad executive leadership.

What have we ended up with? Half arsed NHS reform and half arsed education reform, armed forces which are now half professional and half militia, a semi broken Union and a relationship with Europe that nobody has a clue where stand.

Piss poor leadership.

Edited by DJRC on Monday 29th September 22:15

[SpeedMattersNot]

sjn2004 said:

Some very good points over the last few pages, however the Conservatives still have much to learn. Today at the conference guess what Boris said, A or B.

A - we need to look hard why people are moving to UKIP and leaving our party

or

B - people defect who from the Conservative's to UKIP have sex with vacuum cleaners.

….more votes just gone down the drain

Really? I think it's pretty damn funny...

[Jasandjules]

Well they are all self serving scum.

[sjn2004]

SpeedMattersNot said:

sjn2004 said:

Some very good points over the last few pages, however the Conservatives still have much to learn. Today at the conference guess what Boris said, A or B.

A - we need to look hard why people are moving to UKIP and leaving our party

or

B - people defect who from the Conservative's to UKIP have sex with vacuum cleaners.

….more votes just gone down the drain

Really? I think it's pretty damn funny...

Sort of.
Look at it another way, if for example Vodaphone ran an ad campaign that said all ex customers were idiots would their share price go up or down? How many old customers would ever return? Seems the Conservatives have forgotten about Ratners.

[Fittster]

Mermaid said:

Fittster said:

Mermaid said:

Cameron needs to get super tough on this type of issue, or else he is doomed.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trojan-horse-scandal-wor...

In what way?

Removing parental choice regarding a child's education?

Breeding tomorrow's extremists, rather than nipping it in the bud



Some schools in east London are being taken over by Muslim extremists who are trying to convert pupils and staff to their hardline ideology, according to a report in today's Sunday Times.

What actions would CMD take so that he achieved your goal of being super tough?

[longblackcoat]

To bring the thread back on track, the important thing to consider is not the overall percentage of the vote, but the percentage share of the key marginal constituencies.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2773411/La...

No apologies for the Daily Mail link - it's a pretty unbiased article. And whilst most people agree that the choice between Cameron and Miliband is really a case of which one you dislike least, most people prefer Cameron. Still doesn't mean they're going to vote for him, though maybe things can change in the next few months.

But an 11 point lead in the key marginals? It's going to take a hell of an effort to overtake that.

[MarshPhantom]

Gargamel said:

Go on - name one Conservative aspiration or vision ?

5 more years of punishing the poor?

[MarshPhantom]

Can any PHers who pledge to leave the country if Labour win give a few basic details about their new life. Where they are going and why and what you'll do to make a living at the very least.

[Guybrush]

MarshPhantom said:

Gargamel said:

Go on - name one Conservative aspiration or vision ?

5 more years of punishing the poor?

What did 13 years of Labour do for them? Keep them in their place.

[Derek Smith]

longblackcoat said:

To bring the thread back on track, the important thing to consider is not the overall percentage of the vote, but the percentage share of the key marginal constituencies.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2773411/La...

No apologies for the Daily Mail link - it's a pretty unbiased article. And whilst most people agree that the choice between Cameron and Miliband is really a case of which one you dislike least, most people prefer Cameron. Still doesn't mean they're going to vote for him, though maybe things can change in the next few months.

But an 11 point lead in the key marginals? It's going to take a hell of an effort to overtake that.

There are two main types of voter: those committed to one particular party and those who are not. At the moment, Cameron seems fixated on keeping those who used to be committed and so is ignoring those he should be after, the floating voter.

The problem with UK politics at the moment is the lack of engagement. The government is seen as unimportant by a considerable section of the electorate. We gasp at the turnout for the referendum but a 75%+ turnout was the norm when I was a kid. According to Wiki, there was am 83.9% turnout in 1950, within 0.6% of the 'unprecedented' turnout for the referendum.

Why is no one interested in the political parties? This lethargy plays into the hands of extremists.

What Cameron, or his replacement, needs to do is engage the public. Farage does this and gains voters despite - well everything.

[Randy Winkman]

Guybrush said:

MarshPhantom said:

Gargamel said:

Go on - name one Conservative aspiration or vision ?

5 more years of punishing the poor?

What did 13 years of Labour do for them? Keep them in their place.

Exactly - because they ere rather short of "left-wing" principles.

[turbobloke]

Randy Winkman said:

Guybrush said:

MarshPhantom said:

Gargamel said:

Go on - name one Conservative aspiration or vision ?

5 more years of punishing the poor?

What did 13 years of Labour do for them? Keep them in their place.

Exactly - because they ere rather short of "left-wing" principles.

The Labour Party manifesto for the 2005 election promised "A government committed both to abolishing child poverty and to putting the values of individual responsibility and duty at the very heart of policy" unfortunately by the time they brought the country to its knees both child poverty and pensioner poverty had increased. The same manifesto also promised that "In our third term we will build new ladders of social mobility" yet social mobility stalled.

Child and pensioner poverty up under Labour
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/jun/11/soci...

Social mobility lags in spite of billions spent
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews...

It wasn't so much a shortage of principles, just a fatal lack of competence. Taxing high earners and businesses directly or via stealth taxes doesn't automatically make the poor wealthy.

Higher taxes is not the answer anyway.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11070...

They also promised "We will tackle reoffending" but youth reoffending rates increased through to 2010 regardless of how much was spent.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11960554

[Elroy Blue]

A huge part of the issue is that Cameron has alienated and attacked a vast swathe of the very people that used to be firm Conservative voters. Under the veil of 'austerity' (which only applies where they want it), Cameron has conducted a scorched earth Policy on our Emergency services. The Police cuts for Political purposes, the Fire Brigade because they are seen by Tories as 'militant' and the ambulance service just because they can. Certainly most powerfully built contributors to PH won't feel the affect of these cuts as long as they're not involved in anything nasty. But a friends child collapsed this week and the only ambulance available was one from St Johns Ambulance.(This from a 999 call). The well meaning crew didn't know what to do and her life was saved by a neighbour who is a GP. We, despite hanging on by our fingertips ourselves are having to take people to hospital in Police cars because of cuts to the ambulance service.

Cameron's own hatchet man Tom Winsor has said Police cuts have gone too far. Despite this Cameron has stated that Police will suffer similar cuts in the next Parliament. This is public safety we're talking about. It's a desperate situation and the future is bleak.

Speaking for Police, well over 90% of my shift were lifelong Tory voters. After seeing what they've done (and hearing what future plans are), none of us will ever vote for them again. The contempt they demonstrate for the general public is breathtaking. Having said that, I simply couldn't vote to have Milliband as PM. For the first time in my life, I don't see anybody worthy of the journey to the polling station.

[Rovinghawk]

MarshPhantom said:

Can any PHers who pledge to leave the country if Labour win give a few basic details about their new life. Where they are going and why and what you'll do to make a living at the very least.

I'll do several months of each year working as a scuba guide in Indonesia- I already have a dive centre for whom I work occasionally.
Due to current tax regimes I find it quite cost-effective to work over there for a month now & again; a labour government will make it more attractive still.

I'm sure others have exit strategies they'll share with you.

[Derek Smith]

Elroy Blue said:

A huge part of the issue is that Cameron has alienated and attacked a vast swathe of the very people that used to be firm Conservative voters. Under the veil of 'austerity' (which only applies where they want it), Cameron has conducted a scorched earth Policy on our Emergency services. The Police cuts for Political purposes, the Fire Brigade because they are seen by Tories as 'militant' and the ambulance service just because they can. Certainly most powerfully built contributors to PH won't feel the affect of these cuts as long as they're not involved in anything nasty. But a friends child collapsed this week and the only ambulance available was one from St Johns Ambulance.(This from a 999 call). The well meaning crew didn't know what to do and her life was saved by a neighbour who is a GP. We, despite hanging on by our fingertips ourselves are having to take people to hospital in Police cars because of cuts to the ambulance service.

Cameron's own hatchet man Tom Winsor has said Police cuts have gone too far. Despite this Cameron has stated that Police will suffer similar cuts in the next Parliament. This is public safety we're talking about. It's a desperate situation and the future is bleak.

Speaking for Police, well over 90% of my shift were lifelong Tory voters. After seeing what they've done (and hearing what future plans are), none of us will ever vote for them again. The contempt they demonstrate for the general public is breathtaking. Having said that, I simply couldn't vote to have Milliband as PM. For the first time in my life, I don't see anybody worthy of the journey to the polling station.

His own projects, like the PCCs, the Big Society (remember that? Another success story) and the cuts to the police, the last from way back, are all disasters. He needs to go. His tenure has ruined the party and given excuse for the UKIP. The problem is that he won't go before the election. On top of that, it seems the next best candidate is the divisive Johnson: gravitas personified by its absence.

The tories are up against Miliband and Harman. If you can't generate a substantial lead against them . . . or, come to that, Brown.

Your last para is the critical one I think. We are being asked to vote for the least worst. And it is such a close run thing.

[edh]

turbobloke said:

....Cable wanted the gov't to borrow more and set Osborne's successful Plan A off-track.

I'd hate to see what an unsuccessful plan would look like - on his own he's on course to borrow £190bn more than his original forecasts. We must be on to plan D or E by now.

[Fittster]

edh said:

turbobloke said:

....Cable wanted the gov't to borrow more and set Osborne's successful Plan A off-track.

I'd hate to see what an unsuccessful plan would look like - on his own he's on course to borrow £190bn more than his original forecasts. We must be on to plan D or E by now.

Back in June 2010 the OBR forecast that real GDP would grow by a cumulative 8.2% in between 2010 and 2013. In fact, it grew by only 3.1%. Partly because of this, the deficit is much larger now than expected. In 2010, the OBR forecast that PSNB in 2014-15 would be £37bn, or 2.1% of GDP. It now expects it to be £83.9bn, or 5.5% of GDP.

But that's all because Cable has stymied Osbourne's plans.

[Mermaid]

Fittster said:

What actions would CMD take so that he achieved your goal of being super tough?

Not to labour this, Theresa May has just announced tougher vetting of school Governors.

[Elroy Blue]

Mermaid said:

Not to labour this, Theresa May has just announced tougher vetting of school Governors.

She also said that she was restricting Police Stop search because a number of them were 'probably' (are they or not) illegal. Then she went on to say she was going to deal with the heightened terror threat. So a Politically inspired dig at the Police and how she's going to restrict powers that she intends to increase to deal with the terror threat.

You couldn't make it up.