UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

[Wombat3]

Esseesse said:

Wombat3 said:

JBF50 said:

Wombat3 said:

No we just need a referendum.

Yours is a statement along the lines of "Democracy is OK as long as I win"

If UKIP is not able to persuade the general population of the merits of leaving then I guess we won't be doing that. That's democracy. If you don't agree with the result, that's your problem.

Exactly, lets have a referendum and put this ridiculous UKIP mob to sleep for good, they are just The National Front in disguise.

No, they arn't that, that's a bit silly to be honest. What they are (IMO) is people who have run out of patience . They will argue that's justifiable, I'd argue its wholly unhelpful and unlikely to deliver anything approaching an optimum end result. Children throwing toys around seldom get what they want.

Without UKIP, the EU and immigration (issue for some) would never have been mentioned by the main parties.

That's also not true. The Tories have had a strong bank of EU sceptics since day one.

[Mr_B]

Zod said:

Guam said:

Zod said:

Oh, I'll bow to your greater experience of corporate transactions.

You cant resist can you, always a sideways swipe when we disagree, my view differs from yours based on my experiences is all, rather like Park lane.

I am trying to avoid making a comment that could be seen as patronising. Your primary job is running your business and presumably you sometimes have to negotiate deals. I'm sure you are good at it, Mine is advising on the law, negotiating deals and directing due diligence. I strongly suspect I have seen more negotiations in a wider range of businesses than you have.

Its just a shame in this case you seem unwilling to say what form the deal might take and what would be meaningful and meaningless.

[PRTVR]

Wombat3 said:

Esseesse said:

Wombat3 said:

JBF50 said:

Wombat3 said:

No we just need a referendum.

Yours is a statement along the lines of "Democracy is OK as long as I win"

If UKIP is not able to persuade the general population of the merits of leaving then I guess we won't be doing that. That's democracy. If you don't agree with the result, that's your problem.

Exactly, lets have a referendum and put this ridiculous UKIP mob to sleep for good, they are just The National Front in disguise.

No, they arn't that, that's a bit silly to be honest. What they are (IMO) is people who have run out of patience . They will argue that's justifiable, I'd argue its wholly unhelpful and unlikely to deliver anything approaching an optimum end result. Children throwing toys around seldom get what they want.

Without UKIP, the EU and immigration (issue for some) would never have been mentioned by the main parties.

That's also not true. The Tories have had a strong bank of EU sceptics since day one.

Who have been ignored.

[Wombat3]

PRTVR said:

Wombat3 said:

Esseesse said:

Wombat3 said:

JBF50 said:

Wombat3 said:

No we just need a referendum.

Yours is a statement along the lines of "Democracy is OK as long as I win"

If UKIP is not able to persuade the general population of the merits of leaving then I guess we won't be doing that. That's democracy. If you don't agree with the result, that's your problem.

Exactly, lets have a referendum and put this ridiculous UKIP mob to sleep for good, they are just The National Front in disguise.

No, they arn't that, that's a bit silly to be honest. What they are (IMO) is people who have run out of patience . They will argue that's justifiable, I'd argue its wholly unhelpful and unlikely to deliver anything approaching an optimum end result. Children throwing toys around seldom get what they want.

Without UKIP, the EU and immigration (issue for some) would never have been mentioned by the main parties.

That's also not true. The Tories have had a strong bank of EU sceptics since day one.

Who have been ignored.

Not wholly, but in any case they have been a minority within the party, if they weren't then they would have set the Tory agenda. Unlike most parties different views on this have been able to co-exist within the Tory party.

The whole thing is a moveable landscape anyway. Events change views.

[Zod]

Mr_B said:

Zod said:

Guam said:

Zod said:

Oh, I'll bow to your greater experience of corporate transactions.

You cant resist can you, always a sideways swipe when we disagree, my view differs from yours based on my experiences is all, rather like Park lane.

I am trying to avoid making a comment that could be seen as patronising. Your primary job is running your business and presumably you sometimes have to negotiate deals. I'm sure you are good at it, Mine is advising on the law, negotiating deals and directing due diligence. I strongly suspect I have seen more negotiations in a wider range of businesses than you have.

Its just a shame in this case you seem unwilling to say what form the deal might take and what would be meaningful and meaningless.

The EU deal? How would I know? Suffice to say that if it doesn't represent meaningful change, then it is likely to be rejected in a referendum.

[Wombat3]

Guam said:

Mr_B said:

Its just a shame in this case you seem unwilling to say what form the deal might take and what would be meaningful and meaningless.

Indeed no one seems to want to set the "limits" in this so called "renegotiation" seems to consist of lets fly over to Brussels have a few lunches and a few bottles of plonk and see what we can work out

Free movement is the central issue, that is obvious and has been stated. Of course the EU will start by saying "non" but then until they see Cameron has a mandate after May that gives him the ability to deliver a referendum, what else would you expect?

[Esseesse]

Wombat3 said:

Esseesse said:

Wombat3 said:

JBF50 said:

Wombat3 said:

No we just need a referendum.

Yours is a statement along the lines of "Democracy is OK as long as I win"

If UKIP is not able to persuade the general population of the merits of leaving then I guess we won't be doing that. That's democracy. If you don't agree with the result, that's your problem.

Exactly, lets have a referendum and put this ridiculous UKIP mob to sleep for good, they are just The National Front in disguise.

No, they arn't that, that's a bit silly to be honest. What they are (IMO) is people who have run out of patience . They will argue that's justifiable, I'd argue its wholly unhelpful and unlikely to deliver anything approaching an optimum end result. Children throwing toys around seldom get what they want.

Without UKIP, the EU and immigration (issue for some) would never have been mentioned by the main parties.

That's also not true. The Tories have had a strong bank of EU sceptics since day one.

Not true, they have had a handful of moaners. The only strong EU sceptic Tory MP I can think of (other than the 2 recent defectors who put their money where their mouth is) is Enoch Powell who told voters to vote for the Labour party because it was then the party of strong EU sceptics, not the generally EU loving Torys.

They've done a good job of pretending to be EU sceptic for people like you to repeatedly fall for.

[Wombat3]

Guam said:

Wombat3 said:

DO make your mind up

"Pointless" ergo no point in doing it?

Most people tend to want to avoid doing things when they think its pointless - or does that not apply to you in this case?

As I am not the one charged with doing it its something of a none argument isn't it, seriously is that all you have?

WT actual F are you on about? The issue is whether you agree that we should have a renegotiation or not. The fact that you are "not the one doing it" is just diversionary bks

[Wombat3]

Esseesse said:

Wombat3 said:

Esseesse said:

Wombat3 said:

JBF50 said:

Wombat3 said:

No we just need a referendum.

Yours is a statement along the lines of "Democracy is OK as long as I win"

If UKIP is not able to persuade the general population of the merits of leaving then I guess we won't be doing that. That's democracy. If you don't agree with the result, that's your problem.

Exactly, lets have a referendum and put this ridiculous UKIP mob to sleep for good, they are just The National Front in disguise.

No, they arn't that, that's a bit silly to be honest. What they are (IMO) is people who have run out of patience . They will argue that's justifiable, I'd argue its wholly unhelpful and unlikely to deliver anything approaching an optimum end result. Children throwing toys around seldom get what they want.

Without UKIP, the EU and immigration (issue for some) would never have been mentioned by the main parties.

That's also not true. The Tories have had a strong bank of EU sceptics since day one.

Not true, they have had a handful of moaners. The only strong EU sceptic Tory MP I can think of (other than the 2 recent defectors who put their money where their mouth is) is Enoch Powell who told voters to vote for the Labour party because it was then the party of strong EU sceptics, not the generally EU loving Torys.

They've done a good job of pretending to be EU sceptic for people like you to repeatedly fall for.

Oh, Ok then....

So the ex Tories who are now UKIP-ers are "a handful of moaners" ?

[Esseesse]

Wombat3 said:

Guam said:

Wombat3 said:

DO make your mind up

"Pointless" ergo no point in doing it?

Most people tend to want to avoid doing things when they think its pointless - or does that not apply to you in this case?

As I am not the one charged with doing it its something of a none argument isn't it, seriously is that all you have?

WT actual F are you on about? The issue is whether you agree that we should have a renegotiation or not. The fact that you are "not the one doing it" is just diversionary bks

The 'renegotiation' is a ploy by the EU loving Torys to keep us in the EU.

[Esseesse]

Wombat3 said:

Esseesse said:

Wombat3 said:

Esseesse said:

Wombat3 said:

JBF50 said:

Wombat3 said:

No we just need a referendum.

Yours is a statement along the lines of "Democracy is OK as long as I win"

If UKIP is not able to persuade the general population of the merits of leaving then I guess we won't be doing that. That's democracy. If you don't agree with the result, that's your problem.

Exactly, lets have a referendum and put this ridiculous UKIP mob to sleep for good, they are just The National Front in disguise.

No, they arn't that, that's a bit silly to be honest. What they are (IMO) is people who have run out of patience . They will argue that's justifiable, I'd argue its wholly unhelpful and unlikely to deliver anything approaching an optimum end result. Children throwing toys around seldom get what they want.

Without UKIP, the EU and immigration (issue for some) would never have been mentioned by the main parties.

That's also not true. The Tories have had a strong bank of EU sceptics since day one.

Not true, they have had a handful of moaners. The only strong EU sceptic Tory MP I can think of (other than the 2 recent defectors who put their money where their mouth is) is Enoch Powell who told voters to vote for the Labour party because it was then the party of strong EU sceptics, not the generally EU loving Torys.

They've done a good job of pretending to be EU sceptic for people like you to repeatedly fall for.

Oh, Ok then....

So the ex Tories who are now UKIP-ers are "a handful of moaners" ?

I wrote Tory MP. The number of MP's is all the PM really cares about.

[Mr_B]

Zod said:

Mr_B said:

Zod said:

Guam said:

Zod said:

Oh, I'll bow to your greater experience of corporate transactions.

You cant resist can you, always a sideways swipe when we disagree, my view differs from yours based on my experiences is all, rather like Park lane.

I am trying to avoid making a comment that could be seen as patronising. Your primary job is running your business and presumably you sometimes have to negotiate deals. I'm sure you are good at it, Mine is advising on the law, negotiating deals and directing due diligence. I strongly suspect I have seen more negotiations in a wider range of businesses than you have.

Its just a shame in this case you seem unwilling to say what form the deal might take and what would be meaningful and meaningless.

The EU deal? How would I know? Suffice to say that if it doesn't represent meaningful change, then it is likely to be rejected in a referendum.

You only had to give your opinion on what you think was a realistic deal Cameron might get. I said a change to the treaty of Rome was unrealistic, you said there is every chance of a change, so guessed you must have an idea on what form that might take.
Saying 'change' is utterly meaningless and as vague as possible. It could mean the most minor and obscure rule change resulting in absolutely nothing. So what's your idea of change ?

[JBF50]

If UKIP's campaign is having such an effect on the opinions of the silent, moderate, reasonable, rational, UK public about positively staying in the EU then let them carry on.
However, there is certainly no room for complacency and this week has perfectly illustrated the very essence of NF and his party. Deals with extremists to waste more taxpayers money. It was UKIP that allowed such groups to be funded in the EP in the first place. How can NF continue to present himself and his party as outsiders?
If NF had any ethics, scruples or consistency of argument, then his party would take up a position of abstention from EP and its debates. It seems that the lure of filthy lucre leads to lapses in loyalty to his consistency of cause and argument. Is NF 's politics only about pique, personal profile, power, pomposity, PR and pubs?
What are the polls on voting intentions in the Rochester and Strood by-election predicting? Another station stopover for the UKIP bandwagon, or will Cameron's Tories trip up NF and put the KIPPERS to sleep for five minutes at least and sieze the reins? Will Labour spring a major surprise?
The outcome will likely have a significant impact on the course of right wing politics for the next seven months.

[BGARK]

Who is this new troll thats suddenly appeared to tell us we are all racists, kippers and so on. Is this really the best you idiots can do?

[Mrr T]

Wombat3 said:

Free movement is the central issue, that is obvious and has been stated. Of course the EU will start by saying "non" but then until they see Cameron has a mandate after May that gives him the ability to deliver a referendum, what else would you expect?

It maybe the central issue for you but once people start understanding:
a) The difference between EU and non EU immigration.
b) The negative effect on UK citizens who would now have little access to the EU job market.
I wonder if this might not change.
One of the reasons I believe UKIP membership is well above the national average is that most have never considered working out side the UK. An survey shows the younger you are more interest you will be in working outside the UK.
To me it would be mad to go back to a situation where I would not be able to apply for a job in Paris or Frankfurt as easily as in London.

[Mojocvh]

JBF50 said:

Zod said:

The referendum won't happen if Miliband is PM.

True,I am assuming Labour won't win the GE or form a coalition, just my hunch.

What strange bedfellows

[mrpurple]

BGARK said:

Who is this new troll thats suddenly appeared to tell us we are all racists, kippers and so on. Is this really the best you idiots can do?

Ah bless him... Can only be that his shill paymasters haven't told him the new tactics are to be nice to us kippers.

[TheExcession]

Paid trolls?

steveT350C said:

just imagine...... http://order-order.com/2014/02/27/eu-spends-2-mill...

and as if by magic!

JBF50 said:

Ukip's polarising effect: support for staying in the EU hits 23-year high
A new poll by Ipsos MORI finds that 56% of Britons would vote to stay in the EU - the highest level of support since 1991.
Hopefully we have an EU referendum and it turns to a referendum on UKIP too where the anti-UKIP vote turns out and finishes off this rag-tag racist Party once and for all, they offer nothing constructive to UK politics, they and the Eurosceptic Tories will certainly lose the referendum, I for one cannot wait.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/...

It just gets better and better reading these pages....

I'm not sure whether to , or just

[Wombat3]

Mrr T said:

Wombat3 said:

Free movement is the central issue, that is obvious and has been stated. Of course the EU will start by saying "non" but then until they see Cameron has a mandate after May that gives him the ability to deliver a referendum, what else would you expect?

It maybe the central issue for you but once people start understanding:
a) The difference between EU and non EU immigration.
b) The negative effect on UK citizens who would now have little access to the EU job market.
I wonder if this might not change.
One of the reasons I believe UKIP membership is well above the national average is that most have never considered working out side the UK. An survey shows the younger you are more interest you will be in working outside the UK.
To me it would be mad to go back to a situation where I would not be able to apply for a job in Paris or Frankfurt as easily as in London.

Personally I don't see how full free movement can ever be made to work. It needs to be qualified & quota'd in order to protect the indigenous populations to some degree - and that means not just protecting their jobs, but protecting the infrastructure and services (that they have paid for) from being overloaded as some of ours clearly now are.

[Zod]

Mojocvh said:

JBF50 said:

Zod said:

The referendum won't happen if Miliband is PM.

True,I am assuming Labour won't win the GE or form a coalition, just my hunch.

What strange bedfellows

I am no more his bedfellow than Miliband is Farage's.