UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

[AJS-]

Mrr T said:

So you suggest CMD wanders up to the commission and says "Hey guys we want to make some changes". The commission then says "So you have a mandate for this approach, you have the power to negotiate on behalf of the UK government".

Get real The only way there will be a negotiation is a government with a clear majority to negotiate and likely an agreed date for a referendum.

The only party who can realistically deliver that are the Conservatives.

It is your right to vote for who you like. However, I expect a UKIP vote may well lead to a Labour majority, which might even be a majority in England as well. In which case any plans to leave the UK are gone for at least another 10 years.

And on what mandate does the commission refuse to negotiate? And why anyway are we negotiating for the right to govern our own country?

You are correct in a sense, we have to go to them with a "finished product" and say we will offer the alternative of staying in the EU with ABC changes or we will leave all together. But meaningful reforms on free movement of people would involve tearing up the Treaty of Rome and abandoning one of the founding principles of the European Community. It's not like a budget adjustment or an opt out of some directive. Securing it for the UK without the others doing the same would be essentially leaving the EU anyway.

Cameron knows this, which makes me think he is not serious and the idea would be dropped or that he would fudge a referendum to kick the issue into the lng grass for another generation, never mind 5 years.

Better to have a weak Labour government for 5 years (and definitely would be weak under Milliband) and give the Conservatives 5 years to get their act together, either merge or make a pact with UKIP and form a government in 2020 that will actually take us out of the EU.

[turbobloke]

CamMoreRon said:

jogon said:

As Benn eloquently said in that speech earlier it is not about nationalism but democracy.

I do not feel the European Commission can possibly act in the best interest of all the member states it is impossible in fact quite the opposite is now happening across the continent.

In the context of UKIP I find that concept slightly hard to believe.. the calls to return to "British values" and enhancement / glorification of the armed forces are some pretty clear indicators of a nationalistic undertone.

After the Trojan Horse reports, the Department for Education now requires every state funded school in the country to teach and promote British values to pupils. Apparently, this covers freedom, tolerance, respect for the rule of law, belief in personal and social responsibility and a respect for British institutions. Ofsted are on the case. Living in Britain, one might consider it helpful rather than nationalistic to have a grasp of British values. In terms of UKIP and the armed forces, there was mention in previous policy statements of boosting troops in terms of numbers, again that's not nationalistic it's maintaining a credible fighting force so that we can go to one part of the world to sort somebody else's problem and not leave our own people vunerable in other locations.

CamMoreRon said:

I think it's highly possible the Commission can do that, given that the representatives at each level have the right motives. If that isn't the case, then that's the problem that needs to be addressed; dismantling a theoretically beneficial structure because some elements of it aren't currently satisfied is a bit of a short-sighted move.

So far, the Commission has proved itself incapable of doing that. The reasons won't go away without an alchemist waving a magic wand which turns Greeks into Germans. The costly, undemocratic and corrupt EU has caused a great deal of harm and it still is. Whether or not it's dismantled (not a bad thing but unlikely) we can get the hell out of Dodge and leave the lunatics to run their asylum. They'll be as happy as they are now, not excatly ecstatic with grief widespread in the EZ but hey ho it's the ideology that counts.

[Mrr T]

turbobloke said:

So far, the Commission has proved itself incapable of doing that. The reasons won't go away without an alchemist waving a magic want which turns Greeks into Germans. The costly, undemocratic EU has caused a great deal of harm and whether or not it's dismantled (not a bad thing but unlikely) we can get the hell out of Dodge and leave the lunatics to run their asylum. They'll be as happy as they are now, not excatly ecstatic with grief widespread in the EZ but hey ho it's the ideology that counts.

I agree we need to leave so can you outline the UKIP plan on how to do it within a reasonable time scale.

[turbobloke]

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

So far, the Commission has proved itself incapable of doing that. The reasons won't go away without an alchemist waving a magic want which turns Greeks into Germans. The costly, undemocratic EU has caused a great deal of harm and whether or not it's dismantled (not a bad thing but unlikely) we can get the hell out of Dodge and leave the lunatics to run their asylum. They'll be as happy as they are now, not excatly ecstatic with grief widespread in the EZ but hey ho it's the ideology that counts.

I agree we need to leave so can you outline the UKIP plan on how to do it within a reasonable time scale.

I have neither basis nor reason for doing that as I'm not a UKIP spokesman and haven't voted for UKIP.

Try here: [e-mail]

There are three Brexit treatments linked from PH threads, North's 'Flexcit' plus the Mansfield essay and a high level Bruges Group offering.

[Mrr T]

turbobloke said:

I have neither basis nor reason for doing that as I'm not a UKIP spokesman and haven't voted for UKIP.

Try here: [e-mail]

There are three Brexit treatments linked from PH threads, North's 'Flexcit' plus the Mansfield essay and a high level Bruges Group offering.

I apologise I through you had kippered.

I have read all the plans but since none of them have had any input from UKIP they are not official plans.

I personally find Dr North's plan the most persuasive. It looks as if it would work, and would work within a 2 year period. I even think remaining in the EEA would give the EEA new strength to develop. However, the plan is of cause completely unacceptable to UKIP.

[turbobloke]

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

I have neither basis nor reason for doing that as I'm not a UKIP spokesman and haven't voted for UKIP.

Try here: [e-mail]

There are three Brexit treatments linked from PH threads, North's 'Flexcit' plus the Mansfield essay and a high level Bruges Group offering.

I apologise I through you had kippered.

No need, I thought you were codding anyway.

[Mrr T]

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

I have neither basis nor reason for doing that as I'm not a UKIP spokesman and haven't voted for UKIP.

Try here: [e-mail]

There are three Brexit treatments linked from PH threads, North's 'Flexcit' plus the Mansfield essay and a high level Bruges Group offering.

I apologise I through you had kippered.

No need, I thought you were codding anyway.

It was only a red herring.

[CamMoreRon]

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

I have neither basis nor reason for doing that as I'm not a UKIP spokesman and haven't voted for UKIP.

Try here: [e-mail]

There are three Brexit treatments linked from PH threads, North's 'Flexcit' plus the Mansfield essay and a high level Bruges Group offering.

I apologise I through you had kippered.

No need, I thought you were codding anyway.

It was only a red herring.

At least you didn't make a bass out of yourself.

[don4l]

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

I have neither basis nor reason for doing that as I'm not a UKIP spokesman and haven't voted for UKIP.

Try here: [e-mail]

There are three Brexit treatments linked from PH threads, North's 'Flexcit' plus the Mansfield essay and a high level Bruges Group offering.

I apologise I through you had kippered.

No need, I thought you were codding anyway.

It was only a red herring.

These fish puns are a turtle disaster. The best puns are sole!

[FiF]

don4l said:

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

I have neither basis nor reason for doing that as I'm not a UKIP spokesman and haven't voted for UKIP.

Try here: [e-mail]

There are three Brexit treatments linked from PH threads, North's 'Flexcit' plus the Mansfield essay and a high level Bruges Group offering.

I apologise I through you had kippered.

No need, I thought you were codding anyway.

It was only a red herring.

These fish puns are a turtle disaster. The best puns are sole!

Of course when the chips are down someone usually gets a battering.

[CamMoreRon]

turbobloke said:

CamMoreRon said:

In the context of UKIP I find that concept slightly hard to believe.. the calls to return to "British values" and enhancement / glorification of the armed forces are some pretty clear indicators of a nationalistic undertone.

After the Trojan Horse reports, the Department for Education now requires every state funded school in the country to teach and promote British values to pupils. Apparently, this covers freedom, tolerance, respect for the rule of law, belief in personal and social responsibility and a respect for British institutions. Ofsted are on the case. Living in Britain, one might consider it helpful rather than nationalistic to have a grasp of British values. In terms of UKIP and the armed forces, there was mention in previous policy statements of boosting troops in terms of numbers, again that's not nationalistic it's maintaining a credible fighting force so that we can go to one part of the world to sort somebody else's problem and not leave our own people vunerable in other locations.

Yeah that slightly grates on me; just because, with the concept of these being "British" values, it is (or can be) inferred that other nations' values are inferior - or at the very least different. Most of those are fairly sensible international values, so I think labeling them as specifically British is troublesome.

I don't think instilling a dogma of Queen & Country or national pride in schools is any more acceptable than Sharia Law. School teaching for kids should be absolutely neutral and unbiased, and promote free and sensible thinking. Pride in your home country should follow on from that as a voluntary reflex to a love for the place you live, rather than a belief ingrained from infancy.

turbobloke said:

CamMoreRon said:

I think it's highly possible the Commission can do that, given that the representatives at each level have the right motives. If that isn't the case, then that's the problem that needs to be addressed; dismantling a theoretically beneficial structure because some elements of it aren't currently satisfied is a bit of a short-sighted move.

So far, the Commission has proved itself incapable of doing that. The reasons won't go away without an alchemist waving a magic wand which turns Greeks into Germans. The costly, undemocratic and corrupt EU has caused a great deal of harm and it still is. Whether or not it's dismantled (not a bad thing but unlikely) we can get the hell out of Dodge and leave the lunatics to run their asylum. They'll be as happy as they are now, not excatly ecstatic with grief widespread in the EZ but hey ho it's the ideology that counts.

I honestly worry how we'll be without it. Corruption is certainly not exclusive to the EU as it is rife in this country too. If we get an exit then our government on its own isn't powerful enough to stand up to the influence of corporate power, and their ability to bypass democracy is currently bad enough.

[McWigglebum4th]

Zod said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Zod said:

Wow, you were quick! I deleted the post when I saw the MrrT had already raised Bob Neill's bill.

As for that three line whip, why, when the policy is to renegotiate and then hold a referendum on whether to stay in on renegotiated terms or leave, would the Tories have risked that bill going through?

Edited by Zod on Friday 31st October 12:50

So where are these renegotiation's?

Has Cameron been too busy

Does he not know what he wants as i haven't heard a squeak about what we are going to ask for


What are we asking for?

A new coffee machine and a chair that doesn't squeak

It's really not complicated:

Negotiations haven't started yet. The LibDems don't want them. They are part of the government. The renegotiation begins if a Conservative majority government is elected.

So the lib dems are SO powerful that they have managed to stop the entire tory party from publicly saying what they want form europe


Are they sith lords or something?


or just possibly

The Tory party is pro europe but are only making anti europe noises to win votes


So the lib dems are sith lords or the tory party are power hungry gravy train riders

[DJRC]

Benbay001 said:

DJRC said:

The trouble unfortunately can almost entirely be pinned on the Euro.

Not sure many will agree with that. I certainly dont.
The Euro cannot be blamed for a massive undemocratic beurocracy. It cannot be blamed for taxing carbon at every turn.

The Euro has failed for the same reason the EU will fail. Tieing together 28 countries with vastly different societies, historys, work ethics, debt levels, average wages, minimum wages and crime rates and expecting it to work is pure madness. And then expecting the richer and more stable counties to subsidise the poorer ones? No thank you.

That IS the Euro...an intra-area wealth transfer mechanism. That was its point. The financial side of the equation balancing the social side. The democracy thing nobody much cares about in Europe to be honest because it largely doesn't affect them, put simply ppl ignore it. There is no real anti-green thing in mainland Europe, ppl are fairly green concious and happy to be so.

[ninjacost]

what a surprise! check out the postal votes cast , anyone smell a rat ?

steveT350C said:

Labour hold S. Yorshire police commissioner position.

Which is odd considering this... or not

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/crime/75-of-crime-in...

Edited by steveT350C on Friday 31st October 13:35

[don4l]

FiF said:

don4l said:

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

I have neither basis nor reason for doing that as I'm not a UKIP spokesman and haven't voted for UKIP.

Try here: [e-mail]

There are three Brexit treatments linked from PH threads, North's 'Flexcit' plus the Mansfield essay and a high level Bruges Group offering.

I apologise I through you had kippered.

No need, I thought you were codding anyway.

It was only a red herring.

These fish puns are a turtle disaster. The best puns are sole!

Of course when the chips are down someone usually gets a battering.

As long as it's salmon else, preferably the gillty person, then I don't care.

[don4l]

ninjacost said:

what a surprise! check out the postal votes cast , anyone smell a rat ?

steveT350C said:

Labour hold S. Yorshire police commissioner position.

Which is odd considering this... or not

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/crime/75-of-crime-in...

Edited by steveT350C on Friday 31st October 13:35

Three quarters of the votes cast in Doncaster were postal. It doesn't look right at all.

[FiF]

More and more it's possible to liken the EU to that situation which boils folks' wee.

You have hard working organised high earning highly taxed citizens at various parts of the spectrum, whilst elsewhere there are groups who suck on the teat of the state not putting in real work. There are others who work but supplement it with all sorts of untaxed cash in hand stuff of various levels of illegality. There are others who are honest as the day but just dirt poor. There are others who are simply profligate and live way above any sensible measure of their means.

Those paying the high taxes are generally prepared to do so out of civic duty but are getting increasingly pissed off with the overall carry on and the elements who are taking the mick.

Now apply that to EU nations instead of sectors in society.

[mrpurple]

Mrr T said:

I agree we need to leave so can you outline the UKIP plan on how to do it within a reasonable time scale.

I must confess I would like to know more about UKIP's detailed plans for exit but the fact that so many people support UKIP without knowing them speaks volumes about the other parties IMO... but then again we are all uneducated loonies of course.

[AJS-]

CamMoreRon said:

I honestly worry how we'll be without it. Corruption is certainly not exclusive to the EU as it is rife in this country too. If we get an exit then our government on its own isn't powerful enough to stand up to the influence of corporate power, and their ability to bypass democracy is currently bad enough.

Scale to match the bureaucracy of large corporations does not necessarily equate to a willingness or ability to do so.

You couldn't really ask for a more fertile ground for corruption than a remote bureaucracy like the EU 'safeguarding' 500 million well off consumers without ever having to worry about being accountable to them.

[don4l]

The good news just keeps on getting better!

UKIP lead in Rochester is up another 2 points. We are now 15 points ahead of the Conservatives.

http://order-order.com/2014/10/31/poll-ukip-lead-i...