UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

[Esseesse]

Article said:

Mrs Merkel is said to have made clear she will withdraw her support for Britain’s continued EU membership if Mr Cameron insists on pressing for measures which would undermine the principle of the free movement of labour.

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Cameron-s-immigration-policy-pushing-UK-EU-says/story-23977476-detail/story.html

[turbobloke]

Esseesse said:

Article said:

Mrs Merkel is said to have made clear she will withdraw her support for Britain’s continued EU membership if Mr Cameron insists on pressing for measures which would undermine the principle of the free movement of labour.

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Cameron-s-immigration-policy-pushing-UK-EU-says/story-23977476-detail/story.html

Wishing her all the best with that.

That said it's about the free movement of benefits seekers and NHS tourists not labour.

[johnxjsc1985]

Getting kicked out would save the cost of a referendum

[Esseesse]

turbobloke said:

Esseesse said:

Article said:

Mrs Merkel is said to have made clear she will withdraw her support for Britain’s continued EU membership if Mr Cameron insists on pressing for measures which would undermine the principle of the free movement of labour.

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Cameron-s-immigration-policy-pushing-UK-EU-says/story-23977476-detail/story.html

Wishing her all the best with that.

That said it's about the free movement of benefits seekers and NHS tourists not labour.

TBH, it's not about immigration at all. The EU is completely a democratic problem, immigration is a side affect. 250,000 net immigration into the UK is not as much of a problem as the fact the people of the UK are powerless to control it if they wanted to.

I think it was the article linked to by someone, written by the writers of Revolt on The Right (which I have not read). It said words to the effect of it being UKIP's strategy to fuse the idea of the EU and immigration in the minds of the voters. I have said for some time that focussing on immigration is simply a strategy by UKIP to increase it's pull. This is because the majority of the population cannot even begin to scratch the surface of EU directives, EU MEP's, the EU Commission and their various roles without having their minds blown. Immigration is easy to explain, even if you haven't experienced it first hand. And someone 'taking' someone's job, or reducing wages is also pretty easy to understand.

[Art0ir]

Esseesse said:

TBH, it's not about immigration at all. The EU is completely a democratic problem, immigration is a side affect. 250,000 net immigration into the UK is not as much of a problem as the fact the people of the UK are powerless to control it if they wanted to.

Nail, head.

[turbobloke]

Esseesse said:

turbobloke said:

Esseesse said:

Article said:

Mrs Merkel is said to have made clear she will withdraw her support for Britain’s continued EU membership if Mr Cameron insists on pressing for measures which would undermine the principle of the free movement of labour.

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Cameron-s-immigration-policy-pushing-UK-EU-says/story-23977476-detail/story.html

Wishing her all the best with that.

That said it's about the free movement of benefits seekers and NHS tourists not labour.

TBH, it's not about immigration at all. The EU is completely a democratic problem, immigration is a side affect. 250,000 net immigration into the UK is not as much of a problem as the fact the people of the UK are powerless to control it if they wanted to.

Agreed for the most part but it's the wider perception that counts and the phrase 'free movement of labour'.

Movement of labour means people actually working across the countries of the EU. There are far fewer voters who have a problem with free movement of labour. The control aspect then comes to the fore when managing the difference between movement of labour and other movement.

[FiF]

Esseesse said:

turbobloke said:

Esseesse said:

Article said:

Mrs Merkel is said to have made clear she will withdraw her support for Britain’s continued EU membership if Mr Cameron insists on pressing for measures which would undermine the principle of the free movement of labour.

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Cameron-s-immigration-policy-pushing-UK-EU-says/story-23977476-detail/story.html

Wishing her all the best with that.

That said it's about the free movement of benefits seekers and NHS tourists not labour.

TBH, it's not about immigration at all. The EU is completely a democratic problem, immigration is a side affect. 250,000 net immigration into the UK is not as much of a problem as the fact the people of the UK are powerless to control it if they wanted to.

I think it was the article linked to by someone, written by the writers of Revolt on The Right (which I have not read). It said words to the effect of it being UKIP's strategy to fuse the idea of the EU and immigration in the minds of the voters. I have said for some time that focussing on immigration is simply a strategy by UKIP to increase it's pull. This is because the majority of the population cannot even begin to scratch the surface of EU directives, EU MEP's, the EU Commission and their various roles without having their minds blown. Immigration is easy to explain, even if you haven't experienced it first hand. And someone 'taking' someone's job, or reducing wages is also pretty easy to understand.

The problem is, as stated, that the EU is such a complicated situation that it's not a simple task to teach it to students who wish to understand it sufficiently to pass a module of their undergraduate course.

But when they do.

Have related this before but on a full module which is done over one academic year and is taught by an ex commission bod who is basically pro EU, if we're being completely honest, an electronic poll is done on students at beginning and end of the module.

At the beginning they are all shades from a few neutral through generally for to very much pro-EU, latter usually foreign EU students.

At the end their attitudes have taken a marked shift towards anti. There's the odd one but the bulk go from vaguely neutral to sod that for a game of soldiers. Which always pisses the module leader off to great amusement amongst the fellows.

But the point of the story is that if it takes a year of what is, again being honest, desperately dull lectures and seminars, to get relatively interested and committed bright audience to understand, what hope for a disinterested great unwashed.

Apologies for being dismissive of the British voting public but am I wrong? All present company is excepted.

[Esseesse]

FiF said:

The problem is, as stated, that the EU is such a complicated situation that it's not a simple task to teach it to students who wish to understand it sufficiently to pass a module of their undergraduate course.

But when they do.

Have related this before but on a full module which is done over one academic year and is taught by an ex commission bod who is basically pro EU, if we're being completely honest, an electronic poll is done on students at beginning and end of the module.

At the beginning they are all shades from a few neutral through generally for to very much pro-EU, latter usually foreign EU students.

At the end their attitudes have taken a marked shift towards anti. There's the odd one but the bulk go from vaguely neutral to sod that for a game of soldiers. Which always pisses the module leader off to great amusement amongst the fellows.

But the point of the story is that if it takes a year of what is, again being honest, desperately dull lectures and seminars, to get relatively interested and committed bright audience to understand, what hope for a disinterested great unwashed.

Apologies for being dismissive of the British voting public but am I wrong? All present company is excepted.

You are not wrong, and people posting on this thread, and even in NP&E are a weird minority.

Are you a lecturer or work at a university?

[mrpurple]

FiF said:

The problem is, as stated, that the EU is such a complicated situation that it's not a simple task to teach it to students who wish to understand it sufficiently to pass a module of their undergraduate course.

But when they do.

Have related this before but on a full module which is done over one academic year and is taught by an ex commission bod who is basically pro EU, if we're being completely honest, an electronic poll is done on students at beginning and end of the module.

At the beginning they are all shades from a few neutral through generally for to very much pro-EU, latter usually foreign EU students.

At the end their attitudes have taken a marked shift towards anti. There's the odd one but the bulk go from vaguely neutral to sod that for a game of soldiers. Which always pisses the module leader off to great amusement amongst the fellows.

But the point of the story is that if it takes a year of what is, again being honest, desperately dull lectures and seminars, to get relatively interested and committed bright audience to understand, what hope for a disinterested great unwashed.

Apologies for being dismissive of the British voting public but am I wrong? All present company is excepted.

Very much echos my experience from my studies almost 20 yrs ago...As well as being the only mature student I was the only anti EU at the start of the course.....by the end I think I can say the majority were anti..the EU Law study book was thick enough then..probably several volumes now.

[FiF]

Griff Rhys Jones probably to quit UK if Labour win. Almost tempted to vote Labour. Though to his credit he does take a pot shot at wind farms.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/griff-rhy...

[Mrr T]

Esseesse said:

TBH, it's not about immigration at all. The EU is completely a democratic problem, immigration is a side affect. 250,000 net immigration into the UK is not as much of a problem as the fact the people of the UK are powerless to control it if they wanted to.

I agree 100%.

Personally I like the free movement of labour which means I can live and work across the EU without restriction.

The lack of any democracy is the reason I support leaving.

[turbobloke]

Mrr T said:

Esseesse said:

TBH, it's not about immigration at all. The EU is completely a democratic problem, immigration is a side affect. 250,000 net immigration into the UK is not as much of a problem as the fact the people of the UK are powerless to control it if they wanted to.

I agree 100%.

Personally I like the free movement of labour which means I can live and work across the EU without restriction.

The lack of any democracy is the reason I support leaving.

It is about immigration for a lot of voters. Immigration sits at the top of voters' priority concerns when polled, above the economy.

Not that I disagree on the democracy element.

[FiF]

Just putting this here.






Source YouGov h/t Matt Goodwin

[Esseesse]

FiF said:

Just putting this here.






Source YouGov h/t Matt Goodwin

I'm 29. Not looking forward to shifts in political opinion as I get older. Or is this the old "if you're young and don't vote Liberal you haven't a heart, and if you're old and don't vote Conservative you haven't a brain" played out in different colours?

[turbobloke]

Knowledge can be faked, wisdom can't be installed.

[zygalski]

FiF said:

Just putting this here.






Source YouGov h/t Matt Goodwin

This is such a shame.
Bar graphs used to be so much better in the good old days.

[Art0ir]

FiF said:

Just putting this here.






Source YouGov h/t Matt Goodwin

Certainly ties in with the anecdotal evidence I have.

[HonestIago]

Art0ir said:

FiF said:

Just putting this here.






Source YouGov h/t Matt Goodwin

Certainly ties in with the anecdotal evidence I have.

Of most young folk (I'm 24) being hopelessly naive? Mine too. Man-made climate change is non-existent and the Greens are only supported by those who are completely economically illiterate. I honestly despair at some of the tripe I hear from my former university friends who are planning to vote for them.

[Art0ir]

HonestIago said:

Art0ir said:

FiF said:

Just putting this here.






Source YouGov h/t Matt Goodwin

Certainly ties in with the anecdotal evidence I have.

Of most young folk (I'm 24) being hopelessly naive? Mine too. Man-made climate change is non-existent and the Greens are only supported by those who are completely economically illiterate. I honestly despair at some of the tripe I hear from my former university friends who are planning to vote for them.

Pretty much that (24 also). Explaining that they are all failed communists leads to exasperation and confusion most of the time.

[FiF]

Guam said:

Any data on the regional breakdown of that result Fif?

I'll ask him later.