UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

[don4l]

dandarez said:

Or perhaps more appropriate?
...suitably 'Kippered'!

Anyway, you miss the point in saying 3,000 is not a big majority to defend in May.

The point is, and was, the Tories were previously sitting on a NINE THOUSAND MAJORITY which Ukip has overturned rather easily, and this despite the Tories throwing everything at this by-election ...including the kitchen sink ...and the worktop!

Who, what, can stop the Kipper train?

I have deliberately not quoted "all" to spare Zod's feelings. I am not a vindictive person.

However, I believe that the Conservatives had a 10,000 majority at the last election.

This time they lost by 3,000 votes.


Never mind. I'm sure that everything will return to normal by the next election. Bwahaaahaaa.

[JustAnotherLogin]

s2art said:

JustAnotherLogin said:

s2art said:

JustAnotherLogin said:

s2art said:

JustAnotherLogin said:

Esseesse said:

On Conservative Home: Ed West: Tim Montgomerie has ten reasons for not voting for UKIP. Here are ten of mine for doing so.

That reminds me of something I meant to ask.

He says that UKIP would simplify the tax code. That has oft been claimed in the past. But none of the policies seem to achieve that. Indeed the policies on the UKIP site state they will introduce a new tax rate, so it will actually become more complex.

Can anyone point me at anything?

Income tax rates are as nothing compared to the rest of the Byzantine tax regulations. Blame Gordon for a big chunk of this.

True, but I can find no specific statement on any simplification UKIP intend to make. So is it just more fine woolly words with no substance?

Possibly, just a statement of intent. Simplifying our current tax codes make the labours of Hercules look like a doddle, it would require a multi year project by the best academics and experts. I guess all UKIP could do is say they will establish a project to do this which will require multi party support as it will take more than a single term to complete. And it cant really be done while we are subject to the whims of Brussels.

That is rubbish. Nothing in EU regs that specific the tax system

Most of the rest is not much better. If all they can do is establish a project how do they or anyone else know what can be achieved. At the very least they can specific some examples

Wrong. Check out VAT rules as an example. And read this; http://www.brugesgroup.com/eu/the-marks-and-spence...

As for what can be achieved, we can look to the recent past or to other countries. What man has once achieved, man can aspire to recreate. Pointless specifying unconnected examples at this stage, as there is too much interdependency. Big mistake for UKIP to try and specify particular examples before the analysis is done.

But without analysis you can't even know whether it can be simplified. And if they want to learn from some other examples, point to them.
So you are saying UKIP policy is to improve something in an unspecified way, without having done sufficient analysis to know whether anything can be done.

Well that sounds all good

And VAT is simplicity itself compared to most of the tax system. So maybe UKIP will copy the EU?

[s2art]

JustAnotherLogin said:

s2art said:

JustAnotherLogin said:

s2art said:

JustAnotherLogin said:

s2art said:

JustAnotherLogin said:

Esseesse said:

On Conservative Home: Ed West: Tim Montgomerie has ten reasons for not voting for UKIP. Here are ten of mine for doing so.

That reminds me of something I meant to ask.

He says that UKIP would simplify the tax code. That has oft been claimed in the past. But none of the policies seem to achieve that. Indeed the policies on the UKIP site state they will introduce a new tax rate, so it will actually become more complex.

Can anyone point me at anything?

Income tax rates are as nothing compared to the rest of the Byzantine tax regulations. Blame Gordon for a big chunk of this.

True, but I can find no specific statement on any simplification UKIP intend to make. So is it just more fine woolly words with no substance?

Possibly, just a statement of intent. Simplifying our current tax codes make the labours of Hercules look like a doddle, it would require a multi year project by the best academics and experts. I guess all UKIP could do is say they will establish a project to do this which will require multi party support as it will take more than a single term to complete. And it cant really be done while we are subject to the whims of Brussels.

That is rubbish. Nothing in EU regs that specific the tax system

Most of the rest is not much better. If all they can do is establish a project how do they or anyone else know what can be achieved. At the very least they can specific some examples

Wrong. Check out VAT rules as an example. And read this; http://www.brugesgroup.com/eu/the-marks-and-spence...

As for what can be achieved, we can look to the recent past or to other countries. What man has once achieved, man can aspire to recreate. Pointless specifying unconnected examples at this stage, as there is too much interdependency. Big mistake for UKIP to try and specify particular examples before the analysis is done.

But without analysis you can't even know whether it can be simplified. And if they want to learn from some other examples, point to them.
So you are saying UKIP policy is to improve something in an unspecified way, without having done sufficient analysis to know whether anything can be done.

Well that sounds all good

And VAT is simplicity itself compared to most of the tax system. So maybe UKIP will copy the EU?

Nope. We know it used to be simpler. We know other countries have simpler systems. We know Gordon caused much of the complications. Therefore we know something can be done. Not difficult is it?

[XJ Flyer]

egor110 said:

XJ Flyer said:

Both UKIP wins so far seem to point to a low turnout.As I've said there doesn't seem to be anything in UKIP's policies which would change anything radically,in regard to the present situation,regarding the immigration issue,at least from the point of view of the indigenous population.Or that of globalisation and EU membership resulting in loss of sovereignty and thereby loss of control over inward/outward trade flows.

All of which has turned the country at best into a net importer of just about everything from energy to manufactured goods with an oversupplied labour market and resulting low wage levels to match.Or at worst a breeding ground for the Jihadist cause.

Wasn't rochester a 50% turn out?

That's pretty good for a local election.

It was actually a massively publicised important ( for both sides ) parliamentary by election.Which is why the Cons threw everything at it.Assuming the UKIP agenda was all about sending a message a 50% turnout and small margin win over the Cons doesn't exactly provide the advertised political earthquake.The victory speech then seemed to confirm the reasons why.Farage is no Powell on the immigration issue or Shore on the economic one or even close.IE caved in to the open door immigration agenda and a full on believer in the global free market economy.That is even allowing the benefit of the doubt,in the case of the contradiction,between supporting the UK federation while being supposedly anti federalist in the case of the EU.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 21st November 22:27

Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 21st November 22:31

Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 21st November 22:32

[Pesty]

Einion Yrth said:

Why a Tory? Ousting Miliband in Doncaster would be the real fun.

Never happen.

[JustAnotherLogin]

s2art said:

Nope. We know it used to be simpler. We know other countries have simpler systems. We know Gordon caused much of the complications. Therefore we know something can be done. Not difficult is it?

Um, that is what I have been saying. Caused by Gordon, and so nothing whatsoever to do with the EU* as you earlier asserted.
And if it is so easy, then UKIP could give a few pointers rather than yet another apple pie policy with all the substance of a vacuum.

• I know its against the rules of this thread to say the EU isn't to blame for something, but the evidence is clear.

[XJ Flyer]

Pesty said:

Einion Yrth said:

Why a Tory? Ousting Miliband in Doncaster would be the real fun.

Never happen.

To be fair it has always been more difficult to sell anything resembling a working class but anti socialist message in the North than the South.The fact is the Labour vote,especially in the North,is too far inextricably lumbered with the socialist ideology ironically allied to the cheap labour immigration agenda.

It seems obvious that UKIP has moved closer to that agenda anyway in now supporting Labour in the case of the NHS and caving in to the pro immigration cause.Probably having realised that the CBI has more to gain in the form of maintaining the socialist rationed social and health care provision rather than the costs of private income protection and health care cover being passed on into wage claims.The truth is UKIP is just another Party to add to the CBI led agenda that really rules the country.

[XJ Flyer]

JustAnotherLogin said:

Um, that is what I have been saying. Caused by Gordon, and so nothing whatsoever to do with the EU* as you earlier asserted.
And if it is so easy, then UKIP could give a few pointers rather than yet another apple pie policy with all the substance of a vacuum.

• I know its against the rules of this thread to say the EU isn't to blame for something, but the evidence is clear.

The fact is EU membership is all about us paying a fortune in net contributions for the privilege of being in a trade deficit and giving away national sovereignty to EU federalism.Added to which is the addition of yet more cheap east European labour to the UK's already over supplied labour market.UKIP might be genuine in the intent to fix the issue of sovereignty.But wether we are in or out of the EU it is obviously still tied to the CBI and immigrant vote agenda regards the rest.

[rudecherub]

JustAnotherLogin said:

s2art said:

Nope. We know it used to be simpler. We know other countries have simpler systems. We know Gordon caused much of the complications. Therefore we know something can be done. Not difficult is it?

Um, that is what I have been saying. Caused by Gordon, and so nothing whatsoever to do with the EU* as you earlier asserted.
And if it is so easy, then UKIP could give a few pointers rather than yet another apple pie policy with all the substance of a vacuum.

• I know its against the rules of this thread to say the EU isn't to blame for something, but the evidence is clear.

But that's not strictly true, as VAT rules are EU dictat, with some variation permitted.

As for the wider tax system complexity the current adminstration has had nearly 5 years to do something, but as Carswell observed, as a Tory MP - the economic policy didn't change with a change of tenants in Downing St, so hardly surprising they haven't tackled this.

[JustAnotherLogin]

rudecherub said:

JustAnotherLogin said:

s2art said:

Nope. We know it used to be simpler. We know other countries have simpler systems. We know Gordon caused much of the complications. Therefore we know something can be done. Not difficult is it?

Um, that is what I have been saying. Caused by Gordon, and so nothing whatsoever to do with the EU* as you earlier asserted.
And if it is so easy, then UKIP could give a few pointers rather than yet another apple pie policy with all the substance of a vacuum.

• I know its against the rules of this thread to say the EU isn't to blame for something, but the evidence is clear.

But that's not strictly true, as VAT rules are EU dictat, with some variation permitted.

As for the wider tax system complexity the current adminstration has had nearly 5 years to do something, but as Carswell observed, as a Tory MP - the economic policy didn't change with a change of tenants in Downing St, so hardly surprising they haven't tackled this.

But as I said earlier, VAT is amongst the simplest aspects of taxation in this country, so don't blame the EU for its complexity. If you wanted to start simplification, I doubt you would begin there.

I agree that the Tories have not simplified the tax system under this govt. But then as far as I am aware, they never promised too. So thats a red herring too.

To suggest that more general economic policy hasn't changed since Brown however suggests either a hefty set of blinkers or a complete lack of understanding of economics

[s2art]

JustAnotherLogin said:

s2art said:

Nope. We know it used to be simpler. We know other countries have simpler systems. We know Gordon caused much of the complications. Therefore we know something can be done. Not difficult is it?

Um, that is what I have been saying. Caused by Gordon, and so nothing whatsoever to do with the EU* as you earlier asserted.
And if it is so easy, then UKIP could give a few pointers rather than yet another apple pie policy with all the substance of a vacuum.

• I know its against the rules of this thread to say the EU isn't to blame for something, but the evidence is clear.

Quote me where I said it was just the EU to blame. I have not deleted any posts. The EU does cause problems though, as it insists on particular regulations in tax, which we cannot repeal whilst being a EU member . As I said. I think you have comprehension problems.

[JustAnotherLogin]

by all means.
1627 today, you said

s2art said:

Simplifying our current tax codes make the labours of Hercules look like a doddle, it would require a multi year project by the best academics and experts. I guess all UKIP could do is say they will establish a project to do this which will require multi party support as it will take more than a single term to complete. And it cant really be done while we are subject to the whims of Brussels.

There is no reason at all why we cannot simplify our tax codes without leaving the EU

[s2art]

JustAnotherLogin said:

by all means.
1627 today, you said

s2art said:

Simplifying our current tax codes make the labours of Hercules look like a doddle, it would require a multi year project by the best academics and experts. I guess all UKIP could do is say they will establish a project to do this which will require multi party support as it will take more than a single term to complete. And it cant really be done while we are subject to the whims of Brussels.

There is no reason at all why we cannot simplify our tax codes without leaving the EU

And I pointed out that you were wrong. I gave the example of VAT and the ECJ ruling. As long as the ECJ can over-rule any given set of UK tax laws then any simplification we wish to enact can be rendered null by Brussels.

[AJS-]

Zod said:

So what happened to the landslide? It was a decent victory for UKIP, but there were predictions reported in this thread of 49% and statements to the effect that the BBC could find nobody in Rochester who wasn't voting UKIP.

Same thing that happened to the irrelevant protest party would never win seats at Westminster. Times have changed and people are finally, decades late, making their dissatisfaction with the major parties felt at the ballot box.

[zygalski]

Nice to see another Tory retain their seat at a by-election.
Well done Mark.
Times (or is that ties?) they are a changin'....

[JagLover]

JustAnotherLogin said:

But as I said earlier, VAT is amongst the simplest aspects of taxation in this country, so don't blame the EU for its complexity. If you wanted to start simplification, I doubt you would begin there.

VAT legislation is about the most complex area of tax law most businesses will come across. I have been dealing with it for over 10 years and still need to seek help from the specialists on occasion.

[FiF]

The Tories (like Labour) are heading for the graveyard. So how would Stanley Baldwin have dealt with it?

Mail link Dominic Sandbrook writes

[ATG]

s2art said:

Bit unfair to the likes of Carlswell (or Reckless to a lesser extent, see his speech siting the levelers amongst other radicals). They are not typical Tories. There is a strong streak of libertarianism in UKIP, and thats not to be sniffed at.

There's a strong streak of libertarianism in the Conservatives too. Equally both UKIP and the Tories also have strong streaks of authoritarianism, freedom of movement being a current case in point.

[NicD]

ATG said:

There's a strong streak of libertarianism in the Conservatives too. Equally both UKIP and the Tories also have strong streaks of authoritarianism, freedom of movement being a current case in point.

you are trying to confuse me. The Tories = the Conservatives.

Anyway, what is a government if it gives in to all pressure groups?
The answer seems to be a 'coalition'

[FiF]

VAT regulations, so simple, - not. So inexpensive to collect - not.