UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

[Yazar]

Mrr T said:

Yazar said:

What exactly is wrong with this? People can't possibly think they are 'entitled' to move where-ever they wish, even if they are not needed?

If a person doesn't have the 'very specific skills' then go get them first, why should a foreign country have to have labour is does not need?

At the moment we have the opportunity to live and work any where in the EU.

I like the fact that I can work in Frankfurt or Paris without getting a visa.

With companies increasing in size and the UK a small country I would expect more of us will expect to have to work else where in the EU so as to increase our knowledge and experience. It can also be a lot of fun.

You have not anwered my question

I have worked in Europe and out of Europe, in each case times it was due to them needing my skillset. If Britain leaves the EU, my world will stay the same, if the skills are needed then they are needed.

My question is, how can anyone justify a 'right' to move when there may not be a need, why should a foreign country have to have migrants it has no use for?

[Mrr T]

Yazar said:

Mrr T said:

There are lies dammed lies and statistics.

Mrr T said:

Can you direct me to where that graph comes from? Its included in a migration watch column but there is are no links to the original source and a look at the ONS site does not show they collect those statistics.

Migration watch is a credible organisation whose founder has just been made a Lord. Charts will have been created by them from the LabourForce Survey (ONS collects).

ONS collects: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/get-involved/t...
Releases: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/search/index.html?newque...

Normally that is what I would have said about Migration Watch, however, I did an extensive search on the ONS web site and cannot see it collects any data on earning based on country of birth. So am very suspicious.

[Scuffers]

Mrr T said:

So you have your own company which some times contracts with companies outside the EU. As a result of this you some times carry out the work in a country outside the EU.

That is some what different to getting a local work visa to work as an employee of a company in a none EU country.

How so?

I still had to apply/comply with visa requirements, etc etc. and whilst in-country, so far as the local authorities were concerned, I was employed by the end client.

explain how this is so different from say a doctor contracted to the NHS?

me thinks you're splitting hairs

[XJ Flyer]

Yazar said:

Mrr T said:

Yazar said:

What exactly is wrong with this? People can't possibly think they are 'entitled' to move where-ever they wish, even if they are not needed?

If a person doesn't have the 'very specific skills' then go get them first, why should a foreign country have to have labour is does not need?

At the moment we have the opportunity to live and work any where in the EU.

I like the fact that I can work in Frankfurt or Paris without getting a visa.

With companies increasing in size and the UK a small country I would expect more of us will expect to have to work else where in the EU so as to increase our knowledge and experience. It can also be a lot of fun.

You have not anwered my question

I have worked in Europe and out of Europe, both times it was due to them needing my skillset. If Britain leaves the EU, my world will stay the same, if the skills are needed then they are needed.

My question is, how can anyone justify a 'right' to move when there may not be a need, why should a foreign country have to have migrants it has no use for?

The example of British truck drivers not being able to work in Australia,New Zealand or USA where their skills 'are' 'needed',while east European ones can work here where their skills 'aren't' 'needed' proves that it is all about minimising wage costs not freedom of labour movement.

[fido]

Mrr T said:

At the moment we have the opportunity to live and work any where in the EU.

I'll correct that for you. We have the opportunity to live and work anywhere in the WORLD.

Believe me - i'm really trying to see the pro-EU side but it's about as enticing as the Black Friday discounts i.e. not very!

[XJ Flyer]

Scuffers said:

Mrr T said:

So you have your own company which some times contracts with companies outside the EU. As a result of this you some times carry out the work in a country outside the EU.

That is some what different to getting a local work visa to work as an employee of a company in a none EU country.

How so?

I still had to apply/comply with visa requirements, etc etc. and whilst in-country, so far as the local authorities were concerned, I was employed by the end client.

explain how this is so different from say a doctor contracted to the NHS?

me thinks you're splitting hairs

In this case the 'doctor' contracted to the NHS is generally imported from a country where wage rates for the same job are lower with the aim of reducing wage rates here.While our own indigenous doctors then emigrate to better paying countries like Australia,Canada or the US.

The relevant comparison in this case being that inconsistency between our immigration policy,in the case of foreign nationals,concerning all types of jobs,v that of Australia or USA in the case of British immigrants for example.The fact is there are no skill sets which can't be met by the indigenous workforce and our immigration policy is based on minimising wage levels not providing skills which we supposedly don't have.

[Scuffers]

exactly, we always had!

if you're good at what you do and it's in demand, you can work almost anywhere

[XJ Flyer]

Scuffers said:

exactly, we always had!

if you're good at what you do and it's in demand, you can work almost anywhere

So why can't British truck drivers get a visa to work in the US,Australia or New Zealand.

[Zod]

XJ Flyer said:

The example of British truck drivers not being able to work in Australia,New Zealand or USA where their skills 'are' 'needed',while east European ones can work here where their skills 'aren't' 'needed' proves that it is all about minimising wage costs not freedom of labour movement.

Rubbish. It is simply evidence that there is free movement of people in the EU that results in people gravitating towards the richer, more successful countries, while Australia, New Zealand and the USA control immigration and the right to work, particularly for less skilled jobs.

It's extraordinary how your brain manages to twist facts to fit your bizarre view of economics.

[fido]

XJ Flyer said:

So why can't British truck drivers get a visa to work in the US,Australia or New Zealand.

It wasn't a problem in Perth during the commodities boom years? E.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19222037
My friend is still there (as an engineer) though the good times appear to be over - consultants getting fired and you probably won't get a £150k for driving a truck.

[XJ Flyer]

fido said:

XJ Flyer said:

So why can't British truck drivers get a visa to work in the US,Australia or New Zealand.

It wasn't a problem in Perth during the commodities boom years? E.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19222037
My friend is still there (as an engineer) though the good times appear to be over - consultants getting fired and you probably won't get a £150k for driving a truck.

Australia and New Zealand have always been borderline hit or miss in the case of allowing Brits entry for jobs like truck driving but more often/usually miss.USA has always been strictly no chance and Canada up to relatively recently.The point being that none of them have any issues about applying selective strictly enforced quotas and controls including on a retrospective basis if that immigration status changes for whatever reason.The reason being that,unlike them,our immigration policy is all about over supply of the labour market to minimise wage costs for the employers.

www.graceremovals.co.nz/newsitems/174-truckies-sen...


Which still leaves the issue of the race to the bottom which is the global free market economy where instead of importing labour it imports cheaply made goods made in cheap labour sweatshop economies.

[Scuffers]

XJ Flyer said:

So why can't British truck drivers get a visa to work in the US,Australia or New Zealand.

Pretty sure you could in Australia (its on the list of trades), no idea about the other two, although i believe there are some brits working on the ice roads up north...

[XJ Flyer]

Zod said:

XJ Flyer said:

The example of British truck drivers not being able to work in Australia,New Zealand or USA where their skills 'are' 'needed',while east European ones can work here where their skills 'aren't' 'needed' proves that it is all about minimising wage costs not freedom of labour movement.

Rubbish. It is simply evidence that there is free movement of people in the EU that results in people gravitating towards the richer, more successful countries, while Australia, New Zealand and the USA control immigration and the right to work, particularly for less skilled jobs.

It's extraordinary how your brain manages to twist facts to fit your bizarre view of economics.

So feel free to explain the difference and double standards in the case of it being ok in your view for the US etc to 'control' immigration for so called 'less skilled' jobs like truck driving for example as you've admitted,but not for us to do the same.

[XJ Flyer]

Scuffers said:

XJ Flyer said:

So why can't British truck drivers get a visa to work in the US,Australia or New Zealand.

Pretty sure you could in Australia (its on the list of trades), no idea about the other two, although i believe there are some brits working on the ice roads up north...

The ice roads are under Canadian regs not US.Which has only relatively recently introduced strictly controlled immigration for the driver trade group.As for the US still absolutely no chance just like Canada was until relatively recently.As for Aaustralia and NZ I've posted an example of the situation there.IE more miss than hit including retrospective repatriation at the arbitrary drop of a hat.

[Scuffers]

Fair enough i'm not a truck driver.

On a wider point why do you feel you should have the right to go and be a truck driver in any other country on the planet?

Immigration should be at the discretion of each individual country, if they need truck drivers, then great, if they don't, sorry.

If you want to live in the USA, pick a profession they want, or join the green card lottery.

[BlackLabel]

Lord Ashcroft on twitter:


"Released tomorrow polling in Doncaster North showing UKIP 2nd so if Tories tactically vote for UKIP Miliband loses#votetorygetlabour"

https://twitter.com/lordashcroft

[mrpurple]

Oh dear....vote Tory get Labour

[XJ Flyer]

Scuffers said:

Fair enough i'm not a truck driver.

On a wider point why do you feel you should have the right to go and be a truck driver in any other country on the planet?

Immigration should be at the discretion of each individual country, if they need truck drivers, then great, if they don't, sorry.

If you want to live in the USA, pick a profession they want, or join the green card lottery.

The inconvenient fact for your argument is they 'do' need truck drivers as the post concerning the issues in NZ shows.Amongst other stated requests by US operators to open up the US labour market to foreign drivers.

I'm not saying that we should have the 'right' work in any other country.Exactly the opposite.It seems to be those like you who are trying to sell the idea of a so called 'free' labour market not me.

So why is it ok under your ideas to have immigration controls which stop truck drivers etc etc from working in the case of 'other' countries,including on a retrospective basis,but supposedly not for us to have exactly the same controls here.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 26th November 20:21

[Zod]

mrpurple said:

Oh dear....vote Tory get Labour

If I lived in Doncaster and the polls looked that way on election day, I would hold my nose and vote UKIP.

[steveT350C]