UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

[don4l]

mrpurple said:

So his speech was just a lot of hot air and will have almost no effect?

I missed the first couple of minutes of the speech. This meant that I thought that he was telling us what he was actually going to do. Instead, he was just telling us what he would like to get EU permission for.

So, yes, it was all just hot air.

Pathetic.

[JustAnotherLogin]

mrpurple said:

Are there any definitive figures of how many immigrants get benefits, in and out of work?

Can't post the graphs as images, but try this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...

So for all the UKIP fostered hysteria that these immigrants are bleeding us dry through their use of benefits, the answer is : not that much

[JustAnotherLogin]

mjb1 said:

CMD will (like most modern mainstream politicians), say only what he (or his spin doctors) think the public want to hear. Whether he believes it or will follow up on it is irrelevant to him, saying the 'wrong' thing is political suicide.

A frequently heard criticism of CMD from Kippers on here.
Probably a close run thing whether this is more or less common than Kippers criticising CMD for keeping the foreign aid spending at the high levels and not "listening to the people" to cut it.

So I gather conviction is good only when it agrees with the poster, and bad otherwise when they should be more populist, as long of course as the populist view accords with theirs. If that isn't true either then I gather from this forum that its all a result of a LibLabCon conspiracy with the media to brainwash the population.

See, I have been listening to all the Kippers, and I think I understand now
.

[Wombat3]

Zod said:

FiF said:

So will Cameron's speech kill UKIP?

If he does, as expected, set out some red lines which could mean he campaigns for Brexit, will Wombat Zod et al who were most vocal that this was a wrong thing to do then change?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...

i've never said he'd be wrong to campaign for Brexit. My line has always been that he should negotiate to win a much better set of terms for us in the EU with the genuine threat of Brexit if the EU won't play ball.

+1

But then a true representation of what's actually been said doesn't really fit the cause , does it?

[mrpurple]

JustAnotherLogin said:

mrpurple said:

Are there any definitive figures of how many immigrants get benefits, in and out of work?

Can't post the graphs as images, but try this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...

So for all the UKIP fostered hysteria that these immigrants are bleeding us dry through their use of benefits, the answer is : not that much

Thanks for the link...unfortunately being a tightwad I can't view the link.

I personally never thought immigrants were bleeding us dry through their use of benefits and do not consider this to be the major problem caused by uncontrolled immigration. Whilst I welcome any attempt to address these issues IMO it is only tinkering at the edges - Notwithstanding the fact that treating immigrants differently to UK nationals is discriminatory and I doubt acceptable the most of the other EU member states.

As Farage has stated, "We cannot control migration whilst we are in the EU" so the only real solution that I can see is to withdraw from the EU, set up our own immigration controls and then allow immigrants in to fill genuine needs / shortages in a controlled way that the rest of out infrastructure can support.

At the same time I do appreciate the situation of why current UK nationals can't / don't fill areas of shortage need to be seriously addressed.

[dandarez]

Pathetic Cameron speech, clutching at straws.

If UKIP had not made the gains it has, and will continue to make and increase, CMD would not even have considered his pathetic oratory.

I absolutely loved his 'threat to remove migrants from the UK after six months if they have not found work'.

I wouldn't worry about the migrants finding work, I'd be more worried that if they don't find work, whether the authorities could 'find the migrants'!

Pathetic. He's finished.

The antis on here have been barking and barking insults, some even making bets (then retracting them!) for nearly 5 years now, but still UKIP surges on. Or have the antis still not noticed?

Nothing, but nothing will now stop the continual tide that is turning to UKIP.

The sea change is coming.

Good!

[Mrr T]

mrpurple said:

So his speech was just a lot of hot air and will have almost no effect?

So what is the re-negotiations all about? I though I saw that he would need EU agreement to make changes.

TBH As to relevance of stats...figures need a bit more thought on my part but many thanks for posting.



ETA Farages view that I just found: "If this was supposed to be the speech that turned the tide of Cameron's fortunes he may well wish he had never made it."?

http://www.ukip.org/we_cannot_control_migration_wh...

Edited by mrpurple on Friday 28th November 13:21

No problem.

As a Tory voter. I was much more interested in this speech from 3 days ago.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/e...

[brenflys777]

Wombat3 said:

+1

But then a true representation of what's actually been said doesn't really fit the cause , does it?

Child benefit staying universal, referendums, immigration numbers and countless efforts to spin things like a vote on the EAW, show that no matter how accurately Czmerons promises are repeated, they still have little substance.

When UKIP members or politicians make a mistake or say something foolish I feel disappointed, but as someone who voted conservative in 2010, I feel deeply embarrassed by this latest speech. This latest attempt to please both pro and anti EU camps whilst not actually doing anything seems cynical and patronising, are the faithful conservatives that remain not going to be feeling let down?

[TheRealFingers99]

[quote]Nothing, but nothing will now stop the continual tide that is turning to UKIP.
[/quote]

Sounds a little Messianic to me.

You have 2 MPs (defectors, in by elections) and believe that Westminster Cathedral is a Mosque.

There is a God, but she ain't on your side!

[WinstonWolf]

TheRealFingers99 said:

dandarez said:

Nothing, but nothing will now stop the continual tide that is turning to UKIP.

Sounds a little Messianic to me.

You have 2 MPs (defectors, in by elections) and believe that Westminster Cathedral is a Mosque.

There is a God, but she ain't on your side!

If god was a woman do you honestly think they'd have got periods and childbirth while we got the ability to piss standing up?

[dandarez]

TheRealFingers99 said:

Dandarez said:

Nothing, but nothing will now stop the continual tide that is turning to UKIP.

Sounds a little Messianic to me.

You have 2 MPs (defectors, in by elections) and believe that Westminster Cathedral is a Mosque.

There is a God, but she ain't on your side!

This time 5 years ago you'd have said (probably did!) that I was mental to think UKIP would have even one MP any time in the distant future.

As for a God (initial cap?), and a 'she', I've no idea but either fate or something saved Farage in the that plane crash.

I'll go further, if there is a God, and 'she's' on your anti-Kipper side ...well, God help you!

You'll need it/her.

Wait and see.

[JustAnotherLogin]

dandarez said:

still UKIP surges on. Or have the antis still not noticed?

Nothing, but nothing will now stop the continual tide that is turning to UKIP.

The sea change is coming.

Good!

Surges on?
Sea change?

As far as I can see support for UKIP over the last year has done little more than fluctuate a little either side of the 15% mark.

Your optimism seems to have little more basis than that of Wolfie Smith and the Tooting Popular Front.

The most one could say for UKIPs impact at the next election would be that they could stop the Tories winning (which Wolfie would have been more than happy with I suppose)

[FiF]

Zod said:

FiF said:

So will Cameron's speech kill UKIP?

If he does, as expected, set out some red lines which could mean he campaigns for Brexit, will Wombat Zod et al who were most vocal that this was a wrong thing to do then change?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...

i've never said he'd be wrong to campaign for Brexit. My line has always been that he should negotiate to win a much better set of terms for us in the EU with the genuine threat of Brexit if the EU won't play ball.

Nope you don't remember what you said. In response to a post by Wombat who said that he should not lay out any of the things he was looking for in the negotiation (not a quote but the essence of what was being said because I cba to go back and find it) you weighed in on the discussion between myself and Wombat and said you fully agreed with the Marsupial.

So has your view changed after this speech or not, that he has made a mistake for setting out some of his negotiation aims and the possible consequences, however woolly the latter.

[XJ Flyer]

JustAnotherLogin said:

The most one could say for UKIPs impact at the next election would be that they could stop the Tories winning (which Wolfie would have been more than happy with I suppose)

That would depend firstly on wether Farage gets his act together regarding a decent immigration policy with teeth.Then if so wether there are more disillusioned socialists amongst the Labour vote than those making a profit out of the CBI led cheap labour immigration agenda amongst the Con vote.As for the Cons who cares in either case.

[Wombat3]

FiF said:

Zod said:

FiF said:

So will Cameron's speech kill UKIP?

If he does, as expected, set out some red lines which could mean he campaigns for Brexit, will Wombat Zod et al who were most vocal that this was a wrong thing to do then change?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...

i've never said he'd be wrong to campaign for Brexit. My line has always been that he should negotiate to win a much better set of terms for us in the EU with the genuine threat of Brexit if the EU won't play ball.

Nope you don't remember what you said. In response to a post by Wombat who said that he should not lay out any of the things he was looking for in the negotiation (not a quote but the essence of what was being said because I cba to go back and find it) you weighed in on the discussion between myself and Wombat and said you fully agreed with the Marsupial.

So has your view changed after this speech or not, that he has made a mistake for setting out some of his negotiation aims and the possible consequences, however woolly the latter.

What he said, very clearly, was that he was ruling nothing out. That is the correct position from which in which to go into any discussion/negotiation IMO. The EU know what the issues are, they don't need to have them spelled out.

[XJ Flyer]

Wombat3 said:

FiF said:

Zod said:

FiF said:

So will Cameron's speech kill UKIP?

If he does, as expected, set out some red lines which could mean he campaigns for Brexit, will Wombat Zod et al who were most vocal that this was a wrong thing to do then change?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...

i've never said he'd be wrong to campaign for Brexit. My line has always been that he should negotiate to win a much better set of terms for us in the EU with the genuine threat of Brexit if the EU won't play ball.

Nope you don't remember what you said. In response to a post by Wombat who said that he should not lay out any of the things he was looking for in the negotiation (not a quote but the essence of what was being said because I cba to go back and find it) you weighed in on the discussion between myself and Wombat and said you fully agreed with the Marsupial.

So has your view changed after this speech or not, that he has made a mistake for setting out some of his negotiation aims and the possible consequences, however woolly the latter.

What he said, very clearly, was that he was ruling nothing out. That is the correct position from which in which to go into any discussion/negotiation IMO. The EU know what the issues are, they don't need to have them spelled out.

The EU has made its position clear in that regard even in the case of non member Switzerland by using blackmail of denial to EU markets in the case of anyone who doesn't go along with EU policy.Which in our case from the point of view of being in trade deficit with the place and paying a fortune for the privilege wouldn't work assuming Farage knows what he is doing.IE in our case the EU can only lose a trade war.In which case Cameron has nothing to negotiate about we need to leave the EU ASAP and get a new leader who is prepared to work and fight for the country not the EU federation.

[don4l]

brenflys777 said:

Child benefit staying universal, referendums, immigration numbers and countless efforts to spin things like a vote on the EAW, show that no matter how accurately Czmerons promises are repeated, they still have little substance.

When UKIP members or politicians make a mistake or say something foolish I feel disappointed, but as someone who voted conservative in 2010, I feel deeply embarrassed by this latest speech. This latest attempt to please both pro and anti EU camps whilst not actually doing anything seems cynical and patronising, are the faithful conservatives that remain not going to be feeling let down?

A few other items from "the contract".


1. Give you the right to sack your MP, so you
don’t have to wait for an election to get rid of
politicians who are guilty of misconduct.

2. Act now on the national debt, so we can
keep mortgage rates lower for longer.

5. Fight back against crime, cut paperwork to
get police officers on the street, and make
sure criminals serve the sentence given to
them in court.


ETA The contract used to be here...

Well, at least they apologise!

Edited by don4l on Friday 28th November 15:52

[FiF]

Wombat3 said:

FiF said:

Zod said:

FiF said:

So will Cameron's speech kill UKIP?

If he does, as expected, set out some red lines which could mean he campaigns for Brexit, will Wombat Zod et al who were most vocal that this was a wrong thing to do then change?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...

i've never said he'd be wrong to campaign for Brexit. My line has always been that he should negotiate to win a much better set of terms for us in the EU with the genuine threat of Brexit if the EU won't play ball.

Nope you don't remember what you said. In response to a post by Wombat who said that he should not lay out any of the things he was looking for in the negotiation (not a quote but the essence of what was being said because I cba to go back and find it) you weighed in on the discussion between myself and Wombat and said you fully agreed with the Marsupial.

So has your view changed after this speech or not, that he has made a mistake for setting out some of his negotiation aims and the possible consequences, however woolly the latter.

What he said, very clearly, was that he was ruling nothing out. That is the correct position from which in which to go into any discussion/negotiation IMO. The EU know what the issues are, they don't need to have them spelled out.

The whole point is that statement can mean anything and therefore means nothing.

Presumably it's ok for cmd to make airy fairy promises as vague as possible but not others. Ok understood.

To repeat something I said quite a few years ago now. Cameron dead man walking. Davis can sod off too. May ditto. Boris

Sorry but I for one ain't coming back to the fold anytime soon.

[mrpurple]

Wombat3 said:

What he said, very clearly, was that he was ruling nothing out. That is the correct position from which in which to go into any discussion/negotiation IMO. The EU know what the issues are, they don't need to have them spelled out.

Perhaps they don't but if they know already there is no harm in stating what his red lines are, concisely, openly and honestly to all and sundry especially those he may want to vote for him......If I do not get X,Z, then I will recommend leaving....

You might find he will get a lot more respect if he did....so in that respect I hope he doesn't so his past history of empty promises and pledges will be all we have to judge him on.

[TheRealFingers99]

JustAnotherLogin said:

Your optimism seems to have little more basis than that of Wolfie Smith and the Tooting Popular Front.

And the Tooting Popular Front had better policies!