UKIP - The Future - Volume 3
Discussion
brenflys777 said:
I posted a link a few pages ago to an article offering some explanations at to why the negative attacks on UKIP and their supporters was ineffective.i don't agree with the whole interpretation but it does highlight how besides the vacuous nature of posts like those from league67, they are also a waste of time as well as electricity.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/...
One post from an evangelistic anti UKIP league67 has all this negativity:
I'm not wedded to UKIP but the best chance another party or its supporters have of changing my voting intention is to be positive not fester in negativity. Giving a reason to vote Con/Lab/Green rather than trying to denigrate UKIP should be easy but the best they seem to come up with is vote Con/Lab or you might get the other one.
Well, I'm grateful that you are trying to save my time and electricity. Appreciated. Thanks for the selective quoting. Well done you. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/...
One post from an evangelistic anti UKIP league67 has all this negativity:
league67 said:
UKIP-speak for the simple
corrupt lefties
everyfink (!!!)
is usin contrails
(singular intended)
fooled!!!!!
idiotic conclusion
I'm afraid
an idiot with cognitive abilities matching yours,
The photo at the end is just hilarious when we are talking about a party that won the EU elections in one of the most tolerant countries in the world, but the evangelists like league67 may not notice the irony of spending their time trying to mock or influence people they don't respect because of their own bigotry.corrupt lefties
everyfink (!!!)
is usin contrails
(singular intended)
fooled!!!!!
idiotic conclusion
I'm afraid
an idiot with cognitive abilities matching yours,
I'm not wedded to UKIP but the best chance another party or its supporters have of changing my voting intention is to be positive not fester in negativity. Giving a reason to vote Con/Lab/Green rather than trying to denigrate UKIP should be easy but the best they seem to come up with is vote Con/Lab or you might get the other one.
Now, as for the picture. it came as a google search for People's Army. I was under impression that that was devised by leader of UKIP. If he doesn't call supporters and members of UKIP People's Army, I'll edit that post and remove that picture. Do you, yourself, belong to the 'People's Army'?
You are right, UKIP is all about positive messages. From curing gays to 26mil people coming after your job (with finger pointing). No negativity there. None whatsoever. But as long as they are pragmatically 'liberating cash' from that dread EU and line their own pockets, as long as they stay on the message, all is good with the world. Regardless that membership voted two to one against taking that money. Two to one.
I don't know how to say this differently, but do you really think that my goal here is to change anyone's voting? Seriously?
powerstroke said:
How many times!!! UKIP'S policy is for free trade with Europe the Commonwealth and the rest of the world,
Not membership of the corrupt red tape creating unbusinesslike European Union !!
And how, pray is UKIP going to implement this? By individually negotiating hundreds and hundreds of bilateral agreements with individual countries? How long is that going to take and how much is it going to cost? Not membership of the corrupt red tape creating unbusinesslike European Union !!
I don't dispute that the EU has a mountain of problems which require fixing, but this idea that the EU intentionally makes life harder for businesses to do business is just nonsense.
I am completely open about my belief. I have lived and worked in Europe for a considerable part of my career, and from what I see life is pretty bloody good. I'd be entirely happy to live with the UK as a state within a federal Europe. I see no difference between faceless bureaucrats in Westminster and faceless bureaucrats in Brussels. If it means I can hop in my car and drive wherever I want in Europe and work wherever I want and buy whatever I want and employ whomsoever I want I'm happy.
Gaspode said:
And how, pray is UKIP going to implement this? By individually negotiating hundreds and hundreds of bilateral agreements with individual countries? How long is that going to take and how much is it going to cost?
you seem to be very ignorant of how trade works?a huge proportion of international trade requires almost nothing in terms of bilateral agreements.
the only time trade negotiations usually get any emphasis is when there is some conflict , hence why the WTO exists.
if we quit the EU tomorrow, nothing would change, unless the rest of the EU decide to play stupid, and, even if they wanted to do that, Germany is not going to let that happen as it has the most to loose.
EU as a trade block is dieing, compared to the rest of the world, it's becoming less relevant every year, it's basically becoming a consumer dominated block.
Most of the UK's exports are not to the EU (even with the figures skewed to include all shipments that transit the EU), ie, we trade just fine with the rest of the world now, why if we leave the EU would that be any different?
Now, the real big upside is this, at the moment, we are one of the most expensive placed for manufacturing in the world, due to stupidly high energy costs, due to EU climate change legislation, what do you think will happen to manufacturing if their energy costs are cut massively?
are you really that blinded you cannot see that the EU is dragging us and our economy down?
league67 said:
Well, I'm grateful that you are trying to save my time and electricity. Appreciated. Thanks for the selective quoting. Well done you.
Now, as for the picture. it came as a google search for People's Army. I was under impression that that was devised by leader of UKIP. If he doesn't call supporters and members of UKIP People's Army, I'll edit that post and remove that picture. Do you, yourself, belong to the 'People's Army'?
You are right, UKIP is all about positive messages. From curing gays to 26mil people coming after your job (with finger pointing). No negativity there. None whatsoever. But as long as they are pragmatically 'liberating cash' from that dread EU and line their own pockets, as long as they stay on the message, all is good with the world. Regardless that membership voted two to one against taking that money. Two to one.
I don't know how to say this differently, but do you really think that my goal here is to change anyone's voting? Seriously?
Now, as for the picture. it came as a google search for People's Army. I was under impression that that was devised by leader of UKIP. If he doesn't call supporters and members of UKIP People's Army, I'll edit that post and remove that picture. Do you, yourself, belong to the 'People's Army'?
You are right, UKIP is all about positive messages. From curing gays to 26mil people coming after your job (with finger pointing). No negativity there. None whatsoever. But as long as they are pragmatically 'liberating cash' from that dread EU and line their own pockets, as long as they stay on the message, all is good with the world. Regardless that membership voted two to one against taking that money. Two to one.
I don't know how to say this differently, but do you really think that my goal here is to change anyone's voting? Seriously?
at its best N P & E is informative and has some healthy debate. I've changed my opinion on some subjects when people have made a particularly compelling point or a reasoned argument. I wouldn't assume you would be capable of doing the same.The picture you posted seems to fit with your 'dear leader' comments but seems inappropriate to post in connection with a Democratic Party that has won a national election. I don't dispute Farage has called it a people's army but you must have a different search engine to me.
You are of course talking nonsense referring to messages from UKIP about curing gays. If you can back that up with any official UKIP policy it would be worth mentioning, but if it's from individual members then it's as ridiculous as saying Green and Lib Dem messages encourage paedophiles, Labout encourages wife beating and the Conservative message is encouraging theft.
The 26 million comment is similarly bereft of value because UKIP pointed out the fact people from other countries had the right to come here and compete for work. Not that they would but that they could, so whilst it's a negative point it was hopelessly misreported.
Overall UKIP is being positive because they are the only party presenting the case for the UK being capable of success without being reliant on a failing EU organisation.
If you could raise your game to discussing the issues - and UKIP have plenty to address - without the needless negativity then you might not be wasting your time.
Guam said:
don't worry, Nick says we have the EU arrest warrant to keep us safe...
and according to the EU Hamas are not terrorists at all!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-305115...
brenflys777 said:
league67 said:
Well, I'm grateful that you are trying to save my time and electricity. Appreciated. Thanks for the selective quoting. Well done you.
Now, as for the picture. it came as a google search for People's Army. I was under impression that that was devised by leader of UKIP. If he doesn't call supporters and members of UKIP People's Army, I'll edit that post and remove that picture. Do you, yourself, belong to the 'People's Army'?
You are right, UKIP is all about positive messages. From curing gays to 26mil people coming after your job (with finger pointing). No negativity there. None whatsoever. But as long as they are pragmatically 'liberating cash' from that dread EU and line their own pockets, as long as they stay on the message, all is good with the world. Regardless that membership voted two to one against taking that money. Two to one.
I don't know how to say this differently, but do you really think that my goal here is to change anyone's voting? Seriously?
Now, as for the picture. it came as a google search for People's Army. I was under impression that that was devised by leader of UKIP. If he doesn't call supporters and members of UKIP People's Army, I'll edit that post and remove that picture. Do you, yourself, belong to the 'People's Army'?
You are right, UKIP is all about positive messages. From curing gays to 26mil people coming after your job (with finger pointing). No negativity there. None whatsoever. But as long as they are pragmatically 'liberating cash' from that dread EU and line their own pockets, as long as they stay on the message, all is good with the world. Regardless that membership voted two to one against taking that money. Two to one.
I don't know how to say this differently, but do you really think that my goal here is to change anyone's voting? Seriously?
at its best N P & E is informative and has some healthy debate. I've changed my opinion on some subjects when people have made a particularly compelling point or a reasoned argument. I wouldn't assume you would be capable of doing the same.The picture you posted seems to fit with your 'dear leader' comments but seems inappropriate to post in connection with a Democratic Party that has won a national election. I don't dispute Farage has called it a people's army but you must have a different search engine to me.
You are of course talking nonsense referring to messages from UKIP about curing gays. If you can back that up with any official UKIP policy it would be worth mentioning, but if it's from individual members then it's as ridiculous as saying Green and Lib Dem messages encourage paedophiles, Labout encourages wife beating and the Conservative message is encouraging theft.
The 26 million comment is similarly bereft of value because UKIP pointed out the fact people from other countries had the right to come here and compete for work. Not that they would but that they could, so whilst it's a negative point it was hopelessly misreported.
Overall UKIP is being positive because they are the only party presenting the case for the UK being capable of success without being reliant on a failing EU organisation.
If you could raise your game to discussing the issues - and UKIP have plenty to address - without the needless negativity then you might not be wasting your time.
You think that 'Democratic Party' would disregard stated wish of their members, again, two to one against joining PEPP (sp?) and taking money. What is democratic about UKIP?
While all other parties have their loons please point out where followers of any party were trying to redefine dictionary entry for 'homophobic' in order to justify what the chosen few have said.
As for the poster;
That poster is pointing at the fearful and the faithful and telling them that 26mil people are after their job. Which is an obvious lie. After all, we know that those lazy, unskilled immigrants, only come here to leach. All on benefits, living 10 to a room, and sending money to Romania to build palaces.
As to discussing issues; according to your brother in arms (you still didn't answer the question if you are member of People's Army) Dan4l, this is not a place for discussing issues and policies. This is the place for quiet contemplation of everything that we hold dear.
league67 said:
That poster is pointing at the fearful and the faithful and telling them that 26mil people are after their job. Which is an obvious lie. After all, we know that those lazy, unskilled immigrants, only come here to leach. All on benefits, living 10 to a room, and sending money to Romania to build palaces.
As to discussing issues; according to your brother in arms (you still didn't answer the question if you are member of People's Army) Dan4l, this is not a place for discussing issues and policies. This is the place for quiet contemplation of everything that we hold dear.
The bit in bold is a lie. UKIP have not said what you wrote.As to discussing issues; according to your brother in arms (you still didn't answer the question if you are member of People's Army) Dan4l, this is not a place for discussing issues and policies. This is the place for quiet contemplation of everything that we hold dear.
The fact that you have to make up stuff just demonstrates the weakness of your position.
don4l said:
league67 said:
That poster is pointing at the fearful and the faithful and telling them that 26mil people are after their job. Which is an obvious lie. After all, we know that those lazy, unskilled immigrants, only come here to leach. All on benefits, living 10 to a room, and sending money to Romania to build palaces.
As to discussing issues; according to your brother in arms (you still didn't answer the question if you are member of People's Army) Dan4l, this is not a place for discussing issues and policies. This is the place for quiet contemplation of everything that we hold dear.
The bit in bold is a lie. UKIP have not said what you wrote.As to discussing issues; according to your brother in arms (you still didn't answer the question if you are member of People's Army) Dan4l, this is not a place for discussing issues and policies. This is the place for quiet contemplation of everything that we hold dear.
The fact that you have to make up stuff just demonstrates the weakness of your position.
HTH.
league67 said:
do you think this new way of charging VAT is a good thing or not. If not, why not.
It's yet one more layer of complexity for businesses to contend with, that hit the smallest businesses disproportionately hard. It really is no wonder that big businesses love the EU as more and more barriers to entry are put up, keeping out the small businesses. So your small website that sells a few hundred pounds of digital downloads a year doesn't currently record the necessary information required for the new rules. You've now got two weeks minus xmas and new year holidays to find a developer that can make the appropriate code changes and at a price that makes it worth carrying on. Good luck.
Secondly, it reduces the need for Governments to consider the effect of raising VAT in terms of attracting digital businesses. Perhaps, just perhaps if Governments didn't keep hiking up one of the most regressive taxes that hits the poorest hardest then the disparity between low VAT and high VAT countries within the EU wouldn't be so high, and there'd be less incentive for large corporations to base their sales in those low VAT countries.
On the subject of which, it's worth reminding ourselves whenever the opportunity arises of this:
Cameron 2009 said:
if you look at the effect of sales tax, it's very regressive, it hits the poorest the hardest. It does, I absolutely promise you. Any sales tax, anything that goes on purchases that you make in shops tends to . . . if you look at it, where VAT goes now it doesn't go on food, obviously, but it goes very, very widely and VAT is a more regressive tax than income tax or council tax.
Cameron April 2010 said:
We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT. Our first Budget is all about recognising we need to get spending under control rather than putting up tax.
Finally, it's likely to mean that for many digital purchases the final cost to the consumer is going to increase by imposing VAT on sales where there was none previously, or increasing the VAT % from what it was before the rule changes."Is your country's deficit out of control? Are you struggling to come up with ways to raise more finance for all those "something must be done" initiatives? Is your mismanaged economy giving you sleepless nights? Here at the EU we can help you tax, tax and tax some more. Case study - we managed to turn harmless CO2 into a massive revenue stream, and what's more our citizens support it! Want to find out more? Call us today!"
league67 said:
don4l said:
league67 said:
That poster is pointing at the fearful and the faithful and telling them that 26mil people are after their job. Which is an obvious lie. After all, we know that those lazy, unskilled immigrants, only come here to leach. All on benefits, living 10 to a room, and sending money to Romania to build palaces.
As to discussing issues; according to your brother in arms (you still didn't answer the question if you are member of People's Army) Dan4l, this is not a place for discussing issues and policies. This is the place for quiet contemplation of everything that we hold dear.
The bit in bold is a lie. UKIP have not said what you wrote.As to discussing issues; according to your brother in arms (you still didn't answer the question if you are member of People's Army) Dan4l, this is not a place for discussing issues and policies. This is the place for quiet contemplation of everything that we hold dear.
The fact that you have to make up stuff just demonstrates the weakness of your position.
HTH.
Do you think that it is funny to just make stuff up?
don4l said:
league67 said:
don4l said:
league67 said:
That poster is pointing at the fearful and the faithful and telling them that 26mil people are after their job. Which is an obvious lie. After all, we know that those lazy, unskilled immigrants, only come here to leach. All on benefits, living 10 to a room, and sending money to Romania to build palaces.
As to discussing issues; according to your brother in arms (you still didn't answer the question if you are member of People's Army) Dan4l, this is not a place for discussing issues and policies. This is the place for quiet contemplation of everything that we hold dear.
The bit in bold is a lie. UKIP have not said what you wrote.As to discussing issues; according to your brother in arms (you still didn't answer the question if you are member of People's Army) Dan4l, this is not a place for discussing issues and policies. This is the place for quiet contemplation of everything that we hold dear.
The fact that you have to make up stuff just demonstrates the weakness of your position.
HTH.
Do you think that it is funny to just make stuff up?
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