UKIP - The Future - Volume 3
Discussion
Gaspode said:
This sounds like you'd prefer not to have UKIP policies and thinking open to critical evaluation. Do you lack confidence in your ability to defend them adequately?
I actually have little interest in 'defending' them. If you disagree, there is little I can say to change your mind.I will correct mud slinging and happy to engage in discussion but this pseudo intellectual navel gazing is a complete turn off.
This country is in a bad place and no one can foretell the future with any accuracy. That is is my starting position.
I am very comfortable with the lever that UKIP public opinion has exerted on both Liebor and the Conservatives, and the decimation of the LibDems is just reward.
very happy to hear you say which party you support, and why.
Gaspode said:
BTW, how's it going with the evidence to support your claim that the EU forced oil companies to sell them cheap oil in preference to trading it on the wholesale markets? Thought not.
I actually said that we were trading German manufactured goods that we 'could' make for ourselves.In exchange for oil that we 'could' have kept at home on the domestic market to insulate ourselves from the embargo and resulting world market price hikes caused by the OPEC sanctions regarding perceived western support of Israel in the 1973 war.Edited by Gaspode on Wednesday 17th December 17:18
So no we weren't 'forced' to 'sell' them cheap oil.We actually effectively 'gave' it to them in exchange for the privilege of queues at the pumps here and massive fuel price increases on a daily basis.The answer from the Europhile Cons and their crony Wilson to the question why usually being answered by the lie that North Sea oil was no good for making petrol or diesel.
When in fact it was being handed to the EU in addition to our other 'contributions' for the privilege of importing stuff from the EU which we didn't need because we could make it for ourselves.
That situation also based on the lie that British workers couldn't make stuff as competitively as the Germans.The result usually being those who believed it thinking that their late 1950's Ford type front suspension and steering set up and early 1960's Triumph type rear suspension set up,3.0 litre,6 cylinder BMW,was worth over twice the price of a domestic made Jag XJ12 with wishbone suspension all round,rack and pinion steering and a 5.3 litre V12 engine thrown in for free plus some change in the form of a free second one in case and assuming the lie that it broke down too often was even true.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 17th December 21:36
Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 17th December 21:38
Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 17th December 21:45
see, NPE can be fun and educational: 
Richard Dawkins coined the term meme in his 1976 book, "The Selfish Gene." As conceived by Dawkins, a meme is a unit of cultural meaning, such as an idea or a value, that is passed from one generation to another. A meme is the cultural counterpart to the unit of physical heredity, the gene.
Richard Dawkins coined the term meme in his 1976 book, "The Selfish Gene." As conceived by Dawkins, a meme is a unit of cultural meaning, such as an idea or a value, that is passed from one generation to another. A meme is the cultural counterpart to the unit of physical heredity, the gene.
XJ Flyer said:
I actually said that we were trading German manufactured goods that we 'could' make for ourselves.In exchange for oil that we 'could' have kept at home on the domestic market to insulate ourselves from the embargo and resulting world market price hikes caused by the OPEC sanctions regarding perceived western support of Israel in the 1973 war.
So no we weren't 'forced' to 'sell' them cheap oil.We actually effectively 'gave' it to them in exchange for the privilege of queues at the pumps here and massive fuel price increases on a daily basis.The answer from the Europhile Cons and their crony Wilson to the question why usually being answered by the lie that North Sea oil was no good for making petrol or diesel.
When in fact it was being handed to the EU in addition to our other 'contributions' for the privilege of importing stuff from the EU which we didn't need because we could make it for ourselves.
That situation also based on the lie that British workers couldn't make stuff as competitively as the Germans.The result usually being those who believed it thinking that their late 1950's Ford type front suspension and steering set up and early 1960's Triumph type rear suspension set up,3.0 litre,6 cylinder BMW,was worth over twice the price of a domestic made Jag XJ12 with wishbone suspension all round and a 5.3 litre V12 engine thrown in for free plus some change in the form of a free spare one assuming the lie that it broke down too often was even true.
Blimey. You're dead keen on protectionism, aren't you?So no we weren't 'forced' to 'sell' them cheap oil.We actually effectively 'gave' it to them in exchange for the privilege of queues at the pumps here and massive fuel price increases on a daily basis.The answer from the Europhile Cons and their crony Wilson to the question why usually being answered by the lie that North Sea oil was no good for making petrol or diesel.
When in fact it was being handed to the EU in addition to our other 'contributions' for the privilege of importing stuff from the EU which we didn't need because we could make it for ourselves.
That situation also based on the lie that British workers couldn't make stuff as competitively as the Germans.The result usually being those who believed it thinking that their late 1950's Ford type front suspension and steering set up and early 1960's Triumph type rear suspension set up,3.0 litre,6 cylinder BMW,was worth over twice the price of a domestic made Jag XJ12 with wishbone suspension all round and a 5.3 litre V12 engine thrown in for free plus some change in the form of a free spare one assuming the lie that it broke down too often was even true.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 17th December 21:36
The idea that the British car industry was anything other than a shambles from the 1950s on is a joke. Not because of the workers, but due to sheer management incompetence and complacency. In the early 1950s the work that Deming was doing with the Japanese was paving the way, and yet UK management dismissed his thinking out of hand. Notions of production engineering were barely understood, BMC didn't even have a clue how much it was costing them to build their cars.
I remember all too well the shoddy nature of cars back then. My dad always bought British, and used to trade his cars in after 45k miles. Couldn't trust them to be reliable after that.
Gaspode said:
NicD said:
then you can start a thread and hopefully, the 'bright' incontinent on here can infest that instead.
This sounds like you'd prefer not to have UKIP policies and thinking open to critical evaluation. Do you lack confidence in your ability to defend them adequately?Critical evaluation.
JustAnotherLogin said:
Don't judge everyone by your own standards. Some other people are open to intellectual arguments based on facts and evidence
I was going to be scathing but its water off your back. Where these people?
From the antis, I see lots of pseudo intellectual posturing but little evidence or relevant facts and no openness.
You are welcome to go back over the many posts to attempt to prove your point.
Gaspode said:
XJ Flyer said:
I actually said that we were trading German manufactured goods that we 'could' make for ourselves.In exchange for oil that we 'could' have kept at home on the domestic market to insulate ourselves from the embargo and resulting world market price hikes caused by the OPEC sanctions regarding perceived western support of Israel in the 1973 war.
So no we weren't 'forced' to 'sell' them cheap oil.We actually effectively 'gave' it to them in exchange for the privilege of queues at the pumps here and massive fuel price increases on a daily basis.The answer from the Europhile Cons and their crony Wilson to the question why usually being answered by the lie that North Sea oil was no good for making petrol or diesel.
When in fact it was being handed to the EU in addition to our other 'contributions' for the privilege of importing stuff from the EU which we didn't need because we could make it for ourselves.
That situation also based on the lie that British workers couldn't make stuff as competitively as the Germans.The result usually being those who believed it thinking that their late 1950's Ford type front suspension and steering set up and early 1960's Triumph type rear suspension set up,3.0 litre,6 cylinder BMW,was worth over twice the price of a domestic made Jag XJ12 with wishbone suspension all round and a 5.3 litre V12 engine thrown in for free plus some change in the form of a free spare one assuming the lie that it broke down too often was even true.
Blimey. You're dead keen on protectionism, aren't you?So no we weren't 'forced' to 'sell' them cheap oil.We actually effectively 'gave' it to them in exchange for the privilege of queues at the pumps here and massive fuel price increases on a daily basis.The answer from the Europhile Cons and their crony Wilson to the question why usually being answered by the lie that North Sea oil was no good for making petrol or diesel.
When in fact it was being handed to the EU in addition to our other 'contributions' for the privilege of importing stuff from the EU which we didn't need because we could make it for ourselves.
That situation also based on the lie that British workers couldn't make stuff as competitively as the Germans.The result usually being those who believed it thinking that their late 1950's Ford type front suspension and steering set up and early 1960's Triumph type rear suspension set up,3.0 litre,6 cylinder BMW,was worth over twice the price of a domestic made Jag XJ12 with wishbone suspension all round and a 5.3 litre V12 engine thrown in for free plus some change in the form of a free spare one assuming the lie that it broke down too often was even true.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 17th December 21:36
The idea that the British car industry was anything other than a shambles from the 1950s on is a joke. Not because of the workers, but due to sheer management incompetence and complacency. In the early 1950s the work that Deming was doing with the Japanese was paving the way, and yet UK management dismissed his thinking out of hand. Notions of production engineering were barely understood, BMC didn't even have a clue how much it was costing them to build their cars.
I remember all too well the shoddy nature of cars back then. My dad always bought British, and used to trade his cars in after 45k miles. Couldn't trust them to be reliable after that.
NicD said:
JustAnotherLogin said:
Don't judge everyone by your own standards. Some other people are open to intellectual arguments based on facts and evidence
I was going to be scathing but its water off your back. Where these people?
From the antis, I see lots of pseudo intellectual posturing but little evidence or relevant facts and no openness.
You are welcome to go back over the many posts to attempt to prove your point.
Lets start with the UKIP proposal to leave the EU and negotiate trade agreements. It has often been said on here that Germany will be particularly keen to get the EU to negotiate such an agreement "because they have a trade surplus with us". Agree so far?
In 2013 6.9% of their exports went to the UK. Whereas approx 50% of UK exports go to the EU.
In addition, the UK finance sector is heavily dependent on being inside the EU for trading in Euro oriented markets
Furthermore trade treaties have to consider not only tariffs but regulations. The EU has already a set that deals with external trading partners, whereas we would have to start from scratch (as UKIP will sifting through the regulations they like). So the EU will have the advantage there too.
Lastly, for PHers particularly, there will be reluctance to give up on their beloved BMWS, Mercs, Porches, VWs, Ferraris, Lambos etc. Whereas the (now very large) UK car industry will mostly relocate to the EU to be inside the EU free trade area.
So. In what way will Germany have more to lose than us, and be more desperate than us to negotiate a treaty?
eharding said:
XJ Flyer said:
....and a 5.3 litre V12 engine thrown in for free...
That was the problem. Literally thrown in by hand, often also employing feet and, on the basis of appearances, frequently teeth as well. JustAnotherLogin said:
Well lets try shall we.
Lets start with the UKIP proposal to leave the EU and negotiate trade agreements. It has often been said on here that Germany will be particularly keen to get the EU to negotiate such an agreement "because they have a trade surplus with us". Agree so far?
In 2013 6.9% of their exports went to the UK. Whereas approx 50% of UK exports go to the EU.
In addition, the UK finance sector is heavily dependent on being inside the EU for trading in Euro oriented markets
Furthermore trade treaties have to consider not only tariffs but regulations. The EU has already a set that deals with external trading partners, whereas we would have to start from scratch (as UKIP will sifting through the regulations they like). So the EU will have the advantage there too.
Lastly, for PHers particularly, there will be reluctance to give up on their beloved BMWS, Mercs, Porches, VWs, Ferraris, Lambos etc. Whereas the (now very large) UK car industry will mostly relocate to the EU to be inside the EU free trade area.
So. In what way will Germany have more to lose than us, and be more desperate than us to negotiate a treaty?
I cant speak for what others have written.Lets start with the UKIP proposal to leave the EU and negotiate trade agreements. It has often been said on here that Germany will be particularly keen to get the EU to negotiate such an agreement "because they have a trade surplus with us". Agree so far?
In 2013 6.9% of their exports went to the UK. Whereas approx 50% of UK exports go to the EU.
In addition, the UK finance sector is heavily dependent on being inside the EU for trading in Euro oriented markets
Furthermore trade treaties have to consider not only tariffs but regulations. The EU has already a set that deals with external trading partners, whereas we would have to start from scratch (as UKIP will sifting through the regulations they like). So the EU will have the advantage there too.
Lastly, for PHers particularly, there will be reluctance to give up on their beloved BMWS, Mercs, Porches, VWs, Ferraris, Lambos etc. Whereas the (now very large) UK car industry will mostly relocate to the EU to be inside the EU free trade area.
So. In what way will Germany have more to lose than us, and be more desperate than us to negotiate a treaty?
We are not in a good place now. If we leave, for sure there will be a period of adjustment. This may be painful, especially as politicians from some EU countries may try to prove a point.
After a period, things will settle and I have confidence in the people.
As for the City, well, a dependence on the financial sector is not advisable in the long term.
Your problem is the same as anyone. You can quote some selective statistics, but no one can predict the future. If you could, you could retire from here and make your fortune spread betting.
JustAnotherLogin said:
Lastly, for PHers particularly, there will be reluctance to give up on their beloved BMWS, Mercs, Porches, VWs, Ferraris, Lambos etc. Whereas the (now very large) UK car industry will mostly relocate to the EU to be inside the EU free trade area.
Not all PH'ers drive luxury barges! Is there reluctance to give up Lexi, Subaru, Kawasaki, Yamaha .. because Japan isn't in the EU? Or Apple products? Etc. This particular argument doesn't really stand up!Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff