UKIP - The Future - Volume 3
Discussion
Gaspode said:
There are undoubtedly a large number of problems both structural and cyclical within the UK economy, but to suggest that anyone who doesn't support UKIP hasn't got an approach to dealing with them is patently absurd.
Here are some numbers:
1. Amount per person per day that the UK Government is spending: £30.00
2. Amount per person per day that the interest payments on the deficit is costing: £2.00
3. Amount per person per day that membership of the EU costs: £0.30
Cutting public spending and reducing the deficit are important and should be the focus of our activity. Taking an enormous risk on leaving the EU for the sake of saving a few quid is not.
two problems with this:Here are some numbers:
1. Amount per person per day that the UK Government is spending: £30.00
2. Amount per person per day that the interest payments on the deficit is costing: £2.00
3. Amount per person per day that membership of the EU costs: £0.30
Cutting public spending and reducing the deficit are important and should be the focus of our activity. Taking an enormous risk on leaving the EU for the sake of saving a few quid is not.
1) the figures are wrong to start with
2) do it against number of taxpayers, not the population.
league67 said:
Yazar said:
league67 said:
Do you really think that any PM is interested in 'cushy' EU job?
Tony Blair wanted the EU presidents job, the current Coalition blocked him.PS 12 * 24k = ?
EU president would haven given him more than that role i.e. much more political access and power leading to far more cash down the line.
Now admit your 'why would any pm' line was wrong.
Actually if you considered the 'bigger picture' in everything you say, you may realise that most of what you come up with is very simplistic
Edited by Yazar on Thursday 18th December 13:46
chris watton said:
It is not about me and thick skins. it is about you and having nothing left but to resort to cheap insults. It happens all the time (and occasionally, it narks me, because it's all too predicable), it makes people feel better about themselves over other's who have different viewpoints, doesn't it? if you pretend that the person you do not agree with has some kind 'ism', or any word ending in 'phobia'/'phobic', or, as you suggested, is 'simple', you like to think you have some kind of [false] moral and intellectual high ground. After all, how dare someone not share your political viewpoint!
I called you up on that, that is all.
What political viewpoint? I was mocking your pretend ability to know what someone else knew. Can't you even understand that much? I called you up on that, that is all.
Mr_B said:
league67 said:
I only frequent immigrants-r-us gatherings, so I doubt that we would ever meet. But if we did, I'd be probably too scared to look in direction of your awesomeness.
Do you have any sense of how you come across to other people here ? Jog on, grasshopper.
league67 said:
What political viewpoint? I was mocking your pretend ability to know what someone else knew. Can't you even understand that much?
All too predictable. You really cannot help yourself, can you.If people like you are now Cameron's only core voter base, is it any wonder why your party of choice (?) has haemorrhaged support?
league67 said:
Mr_B said:
league67 said:
I only frequent immigrants-r-us gatherings, so I doubt that we would ever meet. But if we did, I'd be probably too scared to look in direction of your awesomeness.
Do you have any sense of how you come across to other people here ? Jog on, grasshopper.
I haven't read anything where the majority of your time isn't spent on smugness, belittling and thinking if you just smear someone as racist that's the debate won, with the thinking an added smiley or saying "bless" all the time somehow adds something to what you were trying to debate.
On a personal level, I did wonder why you thought coming across as really quite smug did you any favours, but then wondered if you had mistaken that for equating to intelligence.
Yazar said:
league67 said:
Yazar said:
league67 said:
Do you really think that any PM is interested in 'cushy' EU job?
Tony Blair wanted the EU presidents job, the current Coalition blocked him.PS 12 * 24k = ?
EU president would haven given him more than that role i.e. much more political access and power leading to far more cash down the line.
Now admit your 'why would any pm' line was wrong.
Actually if you considered the 'bigger picture' in everything you say, you may realise that most of what you come up with is very simplistic
Edited by Yazar on Thursday 18th December 13:46
My reply was to someone else who was posting about knowing what someone else knew 'cushy EU non-jobs' for Cameron and his cronies.
Back to Tony. Are you saying that EU non-job carries more exposure than prime minister of UK? Seriously? You think that post will get him to get more money 'down-the-line'? Most money on after-dinner engagement is earned in States and UK. I have no idea why Tony does envoy job. I would doubt very much it's to do with earning more money down-the-line. If I had to guess, I'd say is to try and secure legacy.
All that while completely ignoring the fact that Nige and Co have been milking gravy train for years, while being exceptionally loud at Chez Leon?
I'm trying really hard to make my post here as simple as possible. I'm taking into account the abilities of my audience.
Still nothing on 12 * 24K?
Scuffers said:
two problems with this:
1) the figures are wrong to start with
2) do it against number of taxpayers, not the population.
OK. Revised figures as per your requirement:1) the figures are wrong to start with
2) do it against number of taxpayers, not the population.
2013 figures:
Total number of taxpayers = 29.6 million private taxpayers, 1.88million companies providing tax returns = 31.48 million
Public spending = 673.9bn, therefore Public spend per taxpayer head per day = £58.6
Interest Payments = 4.79bn therefore spend per taxpayer head per day = £4.18
Net EU contributions 5.167bn therefore spend per head per day= £0.44
It doesn't seem to me to make a material difference to my point that EU contributions are a tiny proportion of our overall spending commitments.
what does the breakdown of your figures suggest?
league67 said:
Ok, lets start again. ( I don't know how to make letters bigger, so you'll have to pretent).
My reply was to someone else who was posting about knowing what someone else knew 'cushy EU non-jobs' for Cameron and his cronies.
Back to Tony. Are you saying that EU non-job carries more exposure than prime minister of UK? Seriously? You think that post will get him to get more money 'down-the-line'? Most money on after-dinner engagement is earned in States and UK. I have no idea why Tony does envoy job. I would doubt very much it's to do with earning more money down-the-line. If I had to guess, I'd say is to try and secure legacy.
All that while completely ignoring the fact that Nige and Co have been milking gravy train for years, while being exceptionally loud at Chez Leon?
I'm trying really hard to make my post here as simple as possible. I'm taking into account the abilities of my audience.
Still nothing on 12 * 24K?
Start what again? Let me spell this out as you seem to be worming around.My reply was to someone else who was posting about knowing what someone else knew 'cushy EU non-jobs' for Cameron and his cronies.
Back to Tony. Are you saying that EU non-job carries more exposure than prime minister of UK? Seriously? You think that post will get him to get more money 'down-the-line'? Most money on after-dinner engagement is earned in States and UK. I have no idea why Tony does envoy job. I would doubt very much it's to do with earning more money down-the-line. If I had to guess, I'd say is to try and secure legacy.
All that while completely ignoring the fact that Nige and Co have been milking gravy train for years, while being exceptionally loud at Chez Leon?
I'm trying really hard to make my post here as simple as possible. I'm taking into account the abilities of my audience.
Still nothing on 12 * 24K?
1) Another poster commented about cameron 'after' he has finished being a PM
2) You said very specifically a pm later would not be interested as speeches pay more
3) I pointed out to address this point, Tony did want it
4) You replied doesnt pay enough
5) I pointed out Tonys middle east role paid zero and there is a bigger picture.
And your back to Tony bit makes no sense, why you asking about a eu non-job carrying more exposure then PM of the UK, when we are talking about life 'after' pm'ship has finished
Since you don't know why Tony does the job, I will give you a clue- follow the money he is getting from the middle east!
And no matter the non-job, the title of 'President of Europe' is pretty good for your legacy. And you realise being president of europe would not conflict with after dinner speeches about his prior time as uk pm
All your post above is hot air, you stated that no pm would be interested, and when corrected, pointed out salary is not enough. When corrected again you have waffled on.
chris watton said:
league67 said:
What political viewpoint? I was mocking your pretend ability to know what someone else knew. Can't you even understand that much?
All too predictable. You really cannot help yourself, can you.If people like you are now Cameron's only core voter base, is it any wonder why your party of choice (?) has haemorrhaged support?
What is my party of choice? Dan4l is calling me leftie, you seem to imply that I'm representing Cameron's core voter base.
Btw any hints on next week lottery number?
(I have to thank you for making this thread even more enjoyable than it usually is.)
Gaspode said:
OK. Revised figures as per your requirement:
2013 figures:
Total number of taxpayers = 29.6 million private taxpayers, 1.88million companies providing tax returns = 31.48 million
Public spending = 673.9bn, therefore Public spend per taxpayer head per day = £58.6
Interest Payments = 4.79bn therefore spend per taxpayer head per day = £4.18
Net EU contributions 5.167bn therefore spend per head per day= £0.44
It doesn't seem to me to make a material difference to my point that EU contributions are a tiny proportion of our overall spending commitments.
what does the breakdown of your figures suggest?
like I said, your figures are wrong2013 figures:
Total number of taxpayers = 29.6 million private taxpayers, 1.88million companies providing tax returns = 31.48 million
Public spending = 673.9bn, therefore Public spend per taxpayer head per day = £58.6
Interest Payments = 4.79bn therefore spend per taxpayer head per day = £4.18
Net EU contributions 5.167bn therefore spend per head per day= £0.44
It doesn't seem to me to make a material difference to my point that EU contributions are a tiny proportion of our overall spending commitments.
what does the breakdown of your figures suggest?
EU net contributions are not £5.167bn, where did you drag that up from?
also, if Interest Payments = 4.79bn = £4.18 per day, how can
EU contributions 5.167bn = £0.44 per day?
going on 2014 figures, total government spend is some £732Bn
Of which £48Bn is debt interest
however, there is not figure in any of this for our EU contribution (can't find it in any of the .gov.uk data? I can only assume it's added in parts to the other budget items?)
looking for direct figures for the UK's EU contribution, currently it's down as just over £20Bn, with us getting some £8bn back - so Net figure of £12Bn, BUT that does not include the one-offs we keep getting hit with (£1.7Bn anyone?)
so assuming we go with the £12Bn figure (and forget the extra's) with 29.4 Million taxpayers:
£12Bn / 29.4m = £408 PA = £1.12 per day
now, that does not sound much, but that's just the direct cost of the EU to us, once you start to look at in-direct costs, then it really starts to mount up.
then look at stuff we should not be paying for, like the overseas aid budget, just grown to some £13Bn.
Yazar said:
Start what again? Let me spell this out as you seem to be worming around.
1) Another poster commented about cameron 'after' he has finished being a PM
2) You said very specifically a pm later would not be interested as speeches pay more
3) I pointed out to address this point, Tony did want it
4) You replied doesnt pay enough
5) I pointed out Tonys middle east role paid zero and there is a bigger picture.
And your back to Tony bit makes no sense, why you asking about a eu non-job carrying more exposure then PM of the UK, when we are talking about life 'after' pm'ship has finished
Since you don't know why Tony does the job, I will give you a clue- follow the money he is getting from the middle east!
And no matter the non-job, the title of 'President of Europe' is pretty good for your legacy. And you realise being president of europe would not conflict with after dinner speeches about his prior time as uk pm
All your post above is hot air, you stated that no pm would be interested, and when corrected, pointed out salary is not enough. When corrected again you have waffled on.
1) Apart from the fact that that other poster knew what Cameron is going to do after. He can't 'know' that. You can't 'know' that. I can't 'know' that. Please do catch up.1) Another poster commented about cameron 'after' he has finished being a PM
2) You said very specifically a pm later would not be interested as speeches pay more
3) I pointed out to address this point, Tony did want it
4) You replied doesnt pay enough
5) I pointed out Tonys middle east role paid zero and there is a bigger picture.
And your back to Tony bit makes no sense, why you asking about a eu non-job carrying more exposure then PM of the UK, when we are talking about life 'after' pm'ship has finished
Since you don't know why Tony does the job, I will give you a clue- follow the money he is getting from the middle east!
And no matter the non-job, the title of 'President of Europe' is pretty good for your legacy. And you realise being president of europe would not conflict with after dinner speeches about his prior time as uk pm
All your post above is hot air, you stated that no pm would be interested, and when corrected, pointed out salary is not enough. When corrected again you have waffled on.
2) I did. I doubt that anyone would be doing 'cushy' jobs that pays as much as year as they can make in one evening. They can do the job, but I doubt that motivation is 'cushiness'. By cushy I assume that poster meant easy way of making money.
3) What? I see that he specifically said that he didn't want EU Presidents job. For the record you are aware that he's getting over £3mil (I know you have difficulty with numbers, that is ok), so I'll type again, he's getting £3000000 from JPM and I forgot who else, for being consultant. He also owns couple of LLC's. So I'd assume that he's doing middle east job for legacy, rather than money. Prove me wrong.
4) Comparatively no, president of EU pays peanuts compared to his other roles. Once you finish brushing up on simple maths, I'll point you in direction of opportunity cost. But not now.
5) There is a different picture, I'm not sure if bigger or smaller, but according to him, he wants to be remembered as peace-maker. Which is funny, but is a subject for another thread. He's not being shy about making money, or admitting that he wants to make money.
Now, as usual, you are getting bogged down in detail, to point was mocking mind reading skills of your fellow kipper.
As I answered all your questions ( I included numbers as well for you, so you are less confused); I have one for you;
1 ) Who do you think made more money out of EU gravy train;
a) Farage
b) Cameron
You can circle appropriate answer, or knock, once for Farage, twice for Cameron.
As you are not answering my maths question I can only assume that you are finding ti difficult. Lets try
7 + 4 = ?
Scuffers said:
like I said, your figures are wrong
EU net contributions are not £5.167bn, where did you drag that up from?
also, if Interest Payments = 4.79bn = £4.18 per day, how can
EU contributions 5.167bn = £0.44 per day?
going on 2014 figures, total government spend is some £732Bn
Of which £48Bn is debt interest
however, there is not figure in any of this for our EU contribution (can't find it in any of the .gov.uk data? I can only assume it's added in parts to the other budget items?)
looking for direct figures for the UK's EU contribution, currently it's down as just over £20Bn, with us getting some £8bn back - so Net figure of £12Bn, BUT that does not include the one-offs we keep getting hit with (£1.7Bn anyone?)
so assuming we go with the £12Bn figure (and forget the extra's) with 29.4 Million taxpayers:
£12Bn / 29.4m = £408 PA = £1.12 per day
now, that does not sound much, but that's just the direct cost of the EU to us, once you start to look at in-direct costs, then it really starts to mount up.
then look at stuff we should not be paying for, like the overseas aid budget, just grown to some £13Bn.
Mea culpa, I misread the columns on the EU Budget office spreadsheet. Our total contributions are 11,273m Euros, but we get 6570m Euros spent on us, so net contribution (i.e. money we give to the EU but don't see any of back) is 11273 - 6570 = 4703m Euros or 3689m GBP, quite a lot less than I originally thought.EU net contributions are not £5.167bn, where did you drag that up from?
also, if Interest Payments = 4.79bn = £4.18 per day, how can
EU contributions 5.167bn = £0.44 per day?
going on 2014 figures, total government spend is some £732Bn
Of which £48Bn is debt interest
however, there is not figure in any of this for our EU contribution (can't find it in any of the .gov.uk data? I can only assume it's added in parts to the other budget items?)
looking for direct figures for the UK's EU contribution, currently it's down as just over £20Bn, with us getting some £8bn back - so Net figure of £12Bn, BUT that does not include the one-offs we keep getting hit with (£1.7Bn anyone?)
so assuming we go with the £12Bn figure (and forget the extra's) with 29.4 Million taxpayers:
£12Bn / 29.4m = £408 PA = £1.12 per day
now, that does not sound much, but that's just the direct cost of the EU to us, once you start to look at in-direct costs, then it really starts to mount up.
then look at stuff we should not be paying for, like the overseas aid budget, just grown to some £13Bn.
What are your figures for the indirect costs?
I'm not sure why you want to exclude UK businesses from your calculation of taxpayers, they represent a considerable amount of the tax-raising in the UK, but hey 3689/(29.4x365) = £0.34/day
I'm also not sure why you want to bring our overseas aid budget into the equation. I would certainly agree that it should be exposed to careful scrutiny, but I'm not sure why you would consider it to be a part of the cost of membership of the EU, I don't believe there are any EU directives controlling what our government decides to allocate to this budget?
As for the interest payments, you are quite right, I got my decimal points in the wrong place. in 2013 the UK government spent 47.9 billion GBP (UK treasury figures) in interest payments (i.e. paying for the deficit), so that equates to 47900/(29.4x365) or £4.46 per day
Scuffers said:
your figures are still wrong, Gross EU budget in 2013 was £20Bn GBP, net ~£12Bn
(and as of 1st of this month, we have just paid the £1.7Bn surcharge apparently!)
Gross EU budget is indeed 20bn, and as you say, we get 8Bn of that back as our rebate, so we give c. 12Bn net to the EU.(and as of 1st of this month, we have just paid the £1.7Bn surcharge apparently!)
But the EU then spends that money, of which 6.7bn ends up being spent in the UK on all sorts of redevelopment projects and other funding. To exclude recognition of that benefit from the cost that you identify seems a bit bizarre to me, it's almost as if you're refusing to accept we get any benefit whatsoever from the EU, despite the data showing otherwise.
The 1.7bn surcharge is a bit of a pisser, I admit. But again, it was always known about, the treasury sat on it rather than telling the PM. I suggest that the public exasperation would however be better directed towards the incompetent civil service buffoons than the EU simply applying the rules which were known, public, and we had signed up to.
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