UKIP - The Future - Volume 3
Discussion
XJ Flyer said:
Bearing in mind that the anti UKIP vote is all about maintaining an open door immigration policy,within a federal Europe with EU legislation overruling that of seperate state sovereignty,
No, of course it isn't. That is twisting the views of the majority of the population who don't plan to vote UKIP as much as it is if I were to say that UKIP is just about racists who fear that an uneducated Romanian who cant speak English will be preferred by their employer to them so they will lose their job. Is that you? Bet its not true of most Kippers anyway. Similarly your statement may hold true of a few, but only a few
So the rest of your post is irrelevant
hidetheelephants said:
These days France is more of a deadweight sinking the EZ ship than glue holding the EZ together.
Spot on the money.France is an economic busted flush thanks to the latest socialist dogma propagated by Hollande and his minions although the previous corrupt midget didn't really help.
Bankrupt in all but name, financially AND morally.
Plus they don't use soap.
JustAnotherLogin said:
XJ Flyer said:
Bearing in mind that the anti UKIP vote is all about maintaining an open door immigration policy,within a federal Europe with EU legislation overruling that of seperate state sovereignty,
No, of course it isn't. That is twisting the views of the majority of the population who don't plan to vote UKIP as much as it is if I were to say that UKIP is just about racists who fear that an uneducated Romanian who cant speak English will be preferred by their employer to them so they will lose their job. Is that you? Bet its not true of most Kippers anyway. Similarly your statement may hold true of a few, but only a few
So the rest of your post is irrelevant
XJ Flyer said:
Feel free to explain how you are going to make a modern developed industrial western economy work in the interests of the general working class and the economy as a whole not just for a few at the top.Within the wage restraints imposed in the global free market model based on the use ( exploitation ) of the cheapest labour expectations possible either in the form of cheap immigrant labour or offshoring of jobs.
As opposed to the Fordist model within a protectionist economic trading environment which insulates it from the wage and working condition pressures which apply in that global free market model.
Bearing in mind the budget required for civilised ( private ) levels of income protection,retirement provision and health care cover not just for the workers but also their families.In addition to sufficient budget to cover ( decent ) housing costs and provide the consumer spending power to keep the economy moving forward.
It's like he fired a shotgun at an economics textbook and randomly wrote down the words hit by the individual pellets. As opposed to the Fordist model within a protectionist economic trading environment which insulates it from the wage and working condition pressures which apply in that global free market model.
Bearing in mind the budget required for civilised ( private ) levels of income protection,retirement provision and health care cover not just for the workers but also their families.In addition to sufficient budget to cover ( decent ) housing costs and provide the consumer spending power to keep the economy moving forward.
DJRC said:
In terms of the Peninsular? Not really he wasn't, the Portuguese were fairly useful, but only once Beresford has trained them properly. The Spanish were f
king useless. The guerrillas were good, but also very well rewarded with gold! Not to mention highly motivated anyway!
Unless of course you mean the other armies in Europe facing Boney. Hmm. For the vast majority of time they were st. There is no other word for it, just plain st. It took Boney being a twit, a Russian Emperor realising he had to be an utter and Wellington beating every single Marshall who had become a legend under Boney for the rest of them to actually discover half a backbone and competency. And even then they nearly fked it up. The Grand Alliance can almost be said to have written the template for European co-operative incompetence. Except of course said template had already been written 100 yrs earlier when damn nr the same model conspired to prevent Churchill from defeating the French properly. The irony being that had Churchill been allowed to invade France properly as was his desired strategy then he would quite probably have averted the later French Revolution.
I presume you arent daft enough to mention Waterloo?
You seem to be ignoring the Kings German Legion. The legion was made up largely of ex solderers from the army of the Elector of Hanover, also King George of the UK, when the French took control of Hanover. The Legion included both line infantry, light infantry, cavalry, artillery and engineers. The legion fought with distinction throughout the Peninsular, and at Waterloo under Wellington. From memory the numbers varied between about 8k and 12k. The legion was recognised through out the arm for its professionalism and the Calvary was regarded as the finest in Wellingtons army. They where critical at Waterloo where about 400 men assisted in holding La Haye Sainte against repeated French attacks. Of the 400 only 40 odd where regard as fit for service after the battle.king useless. The guerrillas were good, but also very well rewarded with gold! Not to mention highly motivated anyway!Unless of course you mean the other armies in Europe facing Boney. Hmm. For the vast majority of time they were s
t. There is no other word for it, just plain st. It took Boney being a twit, a Russian Emperor realising he had to be an utter and Wellington beating every single Marshall who had become a legend under Boney for the rest of them to actually discover half a backbone and competency. And even then they nearly fked it up. The Grand Alliance can almost be said to have written the template for European co-operative incompetence. Except of course said template had already been written 100 yrs earlier when damn nr the same model conspired to prevent Churchill from defeating the French properly. The irony being that had Churchill been allowed to invade France properly as was his desired strategy then he would quite probably have averted the later French Revolution.I presume you arent daft enough to mention Waterloo?
XJ Flyer said:
I'm assuming that an anti UKIP vote in favour of any of the other parties is by definition a pro EU vote.
Then you're a fool. Not everyone's first priority when deciding which party to vote for is the EU. I can vote for a party without endorsing its entire manifesto. In fact, I think I always have. Particularly the time I took leave of my senses and voted UKIP in the European elections about 12 years ago. That was purely because I believed the most important issue at the time was keeping the pound. That issue is now sleeping so I am highly likely to vote for another party whose policies match my biggest concerns, and that's certainly not UKIP any more.The only election in which you can assume that a vote is a pro-EU one would be a single issue referendum on the EU.
SilverSixer said:
XJ Flyer said:
I'm assuming that an anti UKIP vote in favour of any of the other parties is by definition a pro EU vote.
Then you're a fool. Not everyone's first priority when deciding which party to vote for is the EU. I can vote for a party without endorsing its entire manifesto. In fact, I think I always have. Particularly the time I took leave of my senses and voted UKIP in the European elections about 12 years ago. That was purely because I believed the most important issue at the time was keeping the pound. That issue is now sleeping so I am highly likely to vote for another party whose policies match my biggest concerns, and that's certainly not UKIP any more.The only election in which you can assume that a vote is a pro-EU one would be a single issue referendum on the EU.
SilverSixer said:
Then you're a fool. Not everyone's first priority when deciding which party to vote for is the EU. I can v
To be fair to XJ, it is the single biggest issue we have to deal with,.as.it affects just about everything.from the UK constitution (and our viability as a sovereign country) though to our economy, and the ruinous effects of climate change policies.Scuffers said:
SilverSixer said:
Then you're a fool. Not everyone's first priority when deciding which party to vote for is the EU. I can v
To be fair to XJ, it is the single biggest issue we have to deal with,.as.it affects just about everything.from the UK constitution (and our viability as a sovereign country) though to our economy, and the ruinous effects of climate change policies.Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can clarify this.
Is it not the case that since Magna Carta the individual has a right to trial by jury? Or has this right previously been displaced (not sure how as Magna Carta isn't an act of parliament so cannot be repealed?). Or is it the case that this right has been trampled recently by the EAW? IIRC in Greece they can keep you in prison for 2 years while they build a case against you, and of course any of us can now be sent to Greece without any evidence presented.
Is it not the case that since Magna Carta the individual has a right to trial by jury? Or has this right previously been displaced (not sure how as Magna Carta isn't an act of parliament so cannot be repealed?). Or is it the case that this right has been trampled recently by the EAW? IIRC in Greece they can keep you in prison for 2 years while they build a case against you, and of course any of us can now be sent to Greece without any evidence presented.
Esseesse said:
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can clarify this.
Is it not the case that since Magna Carta the individual has a right to trial by jury? Or has this right previously been displaced (not sure how as Magna Carta isn't an act of parliament so cannot be repealed?). Or is it the case that this right has been trampled recently by the EAW? IIRC in Greece they can keep you in prison for 2 years while they build a case against you, and of course any of us can now be sent to Greece without any evidence presented.
I asked a simikar question once, there is a thread somewhere on the magna carta. My query was that it says no man shall be denied justice but apparently the magna carta has been replaced by modern laws by royal accent was the answer that came.Is it not the case that since Magna Carta the individual has a right to trial by jury? Or has this right previously been displaced (not sure how as Magna Carta isn't an act of parliament so cannot be repealed?). Or is it the case that this right has been trampled recently by the EAW? IIRC in Greece they can keep you in prison for 2 years while they build a case against you, and of course any of us can now be sent to Greece without any evidence presented.
Esseesse said:
Scuffers said:
SilverSixer said:
Then you're a fool. Not everyone's first priority when deciding which party to vote for is the EU. I can v
To be fair to XJ, it is the single biggest issue we have to deal with,.as.it affects just about everything.from the UK constitution (and our viability as a sovereign country) though to our economy, and the ruinous effects of climate change policies.If he'd said that a vote for any other party was effectively a pro-EU vote, then wouldn't have been far off the mark.
Whilst it's true to say that evidence shows there are many voters for other parties than UKIP who have concerns about the EU, and in choosing for whom to vote it really is best fit / least worst option, at party policy level it is essentially UKIP vs rest.
FiF said:
Esseesse said:
Scuffers said:
SilverSixer said:
Then you're a fool. Not everyone's first priority when deciding which party to vote for is the EU. I can v
To be fair to XJ, it is the single biggest issue we have to deal with,.as.it affects just about everything.from the UK constitution (and our viability as a sovereign country) though to our economy, and the ruinous effects of climate change policies.If he'd said that a vote for any other party was effectively a pro-EU vote, then wouldn't have been far off the mark.
Whilst it's true to say that evidence shows there are many voters for other parties than UKIP who have concerns about the EU, and in choosing for whom to vote it really is best fit / least worst option, at party policy level it is essentially UKIP vs rest.
UKIP
BNP
English Democrats
An Independence from Europe
Britain First
No2EU - Yes to Democracy
Socialist Labour Party
Liberty GB Party
The Green Party and Respect, and of course the Conservatives, also campaign for a referundum, although don't necessarily support exit.
So is it UKIP vs the rest? No. Is a vote for anyone other than UKIP a pro-EU vote? No.
Minor parties you may say, but remember Euro elections are on a PR basis, giving smaller parties a voice.
Flyer is obviously a UKIP activist, or at least a very vocal convert, and I'm simply questioning the orthodox mantra of "UKIP UKIP UKIP is the only way" which he entones through this board. It's not a matter of politeness I'm afraid.
zygalski said:
s2art said:
Not sure if that made much difference. The UK could undercut anybody in the world at that point.
Do you just ignore great chunks of our fairly recent past that don't fit in with your particular political bent?I'm talking British rule over the largest empire in history. All those captive markets, slave traders, sweatshops, tax revenues, free defence forces... honestly you really need to go back to school to find out just to what extent a country like India was plundered for many decades.
I doubt you'll like what you discover.
SilverSixer said:
FiF said:
Esseesse said:
Scuffers said:
SilverSixer said:
Then you're a fool. Not everyone's first priority when deciding which party to vote for is the EU. I can v
To be fair to XJ, it is the single biggest issue we have to deal with,.as.it affects just about everything.from the UK constitution (and our viability as a sovereign country) though to our economy, and the ruinous effects of climate change policies.If he'd said that a vote for any other party was effectively a pro-EU vote, then wouldn't have been far off the mark.
Whilst it's true to say that evidence shows there are many voters for other parties than UKIP who have concerns about the EU, and in choosing for whom to vote it really is best fit / least worst option, at party policy level it is essentially UKIP vs rest.
UKIP
BNP
English Democrats
An Independence from Europe
Britain First
No2EU - Yes to Democracy
Socialist Labour Party
Liberty GB Party
The Green Party and Respect, and of course the Conservatives, also campaign for a referundum, although don't necessarily support exit.
So is it UKIP vs the rest? No. Is a vote for anyone other than UKIP a pro-EU vote? No.
Minor parties you may say, but remember Euro elections are on a PR basis, giving smaller parties a voice.
Flyer is obviously a UKIP activist, or at least a very vocal convert, and I'm simply questioning the orthodox mantra of "UKIP UKIP UKIP is the only way" which he entones through this board. It's not a matter of politeness I'm afraid.
As I said not far off the mark, effectively.
Flyer btw has repeatedly said he can't give his vote to UKIP, not sure who he will vote for.
SilverSixer said:
No, it's these parties vs the rest in terms of leaving the EU (not an exhaustive list):
UKIP
BNP
English Democrats
An Independence from Europe
Britain First
No2EU - Yes to Democracy
Socialist Labour Party
Liberty GB Party
Blimey, you're really scraping it with that lot, I bet 50% of the electorate would not recognice most of those as parties!UKIP
BNP
English Democrats
An Independence from Europe
Britain First
No2EU - Yes to Democracy
Socialist Labour Party
Liberty GB Party
FiF said:
So a list of parties that are, well, nonentities and barking at the moon basically. None of which even registered during an election with proportional representation. Not even close. Not that PR has any relevance to a UK general election anyway, which is what this thread is about.
As I said not far off the mark, effectively.
Flyer btw has repeatedly said he can't give his vote to UKIP, not sure who he will vote for.
exactly...As I said not far off the mark, effectively.
Flyer btw has repeatedly said he can't give his vote to UKIP, not sure who he will vote for.
like it or not, the truth of the matter is that realistically the only EU exit part is UKIP.
NoNeed said:
asked a simikar question once, there is a thread somewhere on the magna carta. My query was that it says no man shall be denied justice but apparently the magna carta has been replaced by modern laws by royal accent was the answer that came.
Interestingly, at least to me, clause 29 of Magna Carta has never been repeated.So its provisions are still applicable:
XXIX. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land.
Any extradition proceeding would be "Law of the land" so no Magna Carta would not offer any protection.
JustAnotherLogin said:
DJRC said:
Interesting sidebar with the Navy, well brought up even if its interesting for entirely the wrong reason of course. Whilst the RN were justifiably known as being a bunch of disciplinarian s who would press gang any bum they could, it is also well documented about their foreign contingent and their extremely overwhelming support for being in the RN. The foreign chaps rarely took part in the mutinies and were extremely enthusiastic about serving as it almost always offered vastly enhanced chances of improving themselves and adventure.
Not sure why you think it is brought up for the wrong reasons. It is a good example from history where immigrants (both from EU and further afield) made a valuable contribution to Britains who would press gang any bum they could, it is also well documented about their foreign contingent and their extremely overwhelming support for being in the RN. The foreign chaps rarely took part in the mutinies and were extremely enthusiastic about serving as it almost always offered vastly enhanced chances of improving themselves and adventure. Your view of the RN of that period is somewhat outdated. Most reputable modern historians would argue most strongly that discipline (in our terms, they meant something very different by the word of course) in the RN of the time was no harsher than shore life; was supported by the ordinary seamen, that harsh captains were the exception and were usually dealt with by the Admiralty. The press gang was hated, but again has a reputation far worse than modern historians would place on it.
I would recommend Dudley Pope or N.A.M Rodger as good examples of how modern historians view the "social" aspects of the RN of that time
The UK Independence Party's general secretary Roger Bird has been cleared of wrong-doing over his relations with former party candidate Natasha Bolter.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30592072
I guess no matter what the outcome, his position became untenable (accusations of poor judgement would only have kept coming up).
All very sad really, but life goes on.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30592072
I guess no matter what the outcome, his position became untenable (accusations of poor judgement would only have kept coming up).
All very sad really, but life goes on.
Mrr T said:
NoNeed said:
asked a simikar question once, there is a thread somewhere on the magna carta. My query was that it says no man shall be denied justice but apparently the magna carta has been replaced by modern laws by royal accent was the answer that came.
Interestingly, at least to me, clause 29 of Magna Carta has never been repeated.So its provisions are still applicable:
XXIX. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land.
Any extradition proceeding would be "Law of the land" so no Magna Carta would not offer any protection.
The issue comes I suppose because this 'law of the land' has only come about because of pressure from the EU and an acceptance by 95% of our MP's to do as the EU says without question, rather than representing their constituents interests or wishes. Technically it is a law of the land, but practically it is a law of the EU.
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