UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

[DeanR32]

NicD said:

DeanR32 said:

Other than EU exit, what are your next big issues you want to see things done about NicD?

If we were ever to get a referendum on the EU, would UKIP have achieved their ultimate goal? I mean, that'd be the most fair way. Where would they go from there? That'd be their trump card beat pretty much

Dean,

I know you cant rely on any politicians promises but there are several UKIP policies that attract me.
http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

Even the heading 'POLICIES FOR PEOPLE' appeals.

so not policies for the union barons or scroungers, or policies for the big company bosses and owners

So all of it appeals. No specifics as such?

[NicD]

DeanR32 said:

So all of it appeals. No specifics as such?

No, not all policies, not this one, for example, unless the deficit had been paid off.

– Inheritance tax will be abolished.


Otherwise, they look a fantastic set of policies.

[DeanR32]

I suppose we need to see manifestos and figures before we pick holes in anyone's policies.

Surely the most fair way to sort out the in/out business would be a referendum in any circumstance?

[Esseesse]

DeanR32 said:

I suppose we need to see manifestos and figures before we pick holes in anyone's policies.

Surely the most fair way to sort out the in/out business would be a referendum in any circumstance?

Probably yes, however this is a bit unfair on the EU skeptics. People have a built in bias to favour the status quo and are fearful of change. So I'm a bit cynical about the original decision to take us in and later when pressured hold a referendum. Perhaps we should leave and then 2 years later hold a referendum on whether we join in full including the Euro.

[zygalski]

DeanR32 said:

I suppose we need to see manifestos and figures before we pick holes in anyone's policies.

Surely the most fair way to sort out the in/out business would be a referendum in any circumstance?

No.
Simply because if it's close you get a referendum each year until one side gets what it wants. Also, after a while you'd get referendum fatigue & only those with the strongest held views would even bother voting. Potentially you could have say 20% of eligible voters deciding the fate of the nation, either to stay in or exit the EU. Also, national referendums aren't cheap.
If being outside the EU really is that important to the British public then you have to have faith that next year a UKIP government will be elected. If UKIP aren't elected as a majority then clearly exiting the EU isn't the deciding factor in our intentions to vote. Either that or at the very least most people want an exit but don't trust UKIP.

Edited by zygalski on Wednesday 24th December 11:25

[Mrr T]

NicD said:

I explained what a plan is, and this at this early stage, it would be premature.
You don't seem to be able to grasp that.

So you lambast UKIP and on the hand, you applaud an opposing politician for presenting a 'good starting point for discuss'

Can you try to order your thoughts.

Btw, I would vote for the Conservatives if they embodied all 'my' policies and I could trust them.
But they fail on both counts.

So with potential 2/3 years to go before a In/Out referendum its to early to have a plan?

Yes I lambaste UKIP for going 20 years and still having no idea how to leave the EU.

Yes I applaud Owen Patterson for publicly presenting a plan. Remember its not Conservative policy to leave the EU, Conservative policy is to renegotiate and then have an In/Out referendum On which Cameron is likely to support the In option.

[Mrr T]

brenflys777 said:

I don't think the insults are helpful to either side. Personal insults distract and I find a strong correlation between people who say 'dear leader' about any politician other than Jong Un and poor debating points... however..

We've been around the houses before about UKIPs exit plans. Unless you see 'cast iron' plans you won't be content, but the membership of the EU is not a static event. Things can and doubtless will change in the EU and until we know exactly what the conditions are at the time, including the state of the EU and our own economy, we can't be absolute.

UKIP have given a strategic plan for what they want to achieve, trade agreements with the EU and the ability to trade with other countries on bilateral terms not the EUs and of course we want to extract ourselves from the EU's social control. That's the strategic plan and the options for how to achieve that will vary depending on circumstance.

I can understand why you'd want it to be more specific but the EU isn't static. If you asked the pro EU side to be specific about what will happen in terms of us staying in they can give you the strategic aim of ever closer union, but not when they will take more powers from the UK or how. In the case of Cameron he gives a very basic strategic view of 'reforming' the EU and getting a better deal for the UK, but his inability to set the strategic bottom line (Ukips being EU exit) means it's next to useless.

I think until the pro EU side can define exactly what our membership means, it's perfectly reasonable for UKIP to give a direction of travel but not the means. The UK is a much better prospect than most of the EU, we are net contributors and they need us more than we need them IMO, if we could have a membership which brought us back to the economic trading group that the UK public have been told the EU was, then I'd be perfectly happy to stay, but before any referendum the pro EU side need to be honest about what continued membership means. Ever closer union.

Edited by brenflys777 on Wednesday 24th December 10:25

Considering how willing kippers are to insult the Conservative party I think referring to Farage as the great leader is light jesting.

As for the rest of your post it show all the normal understanding of UKIP.

1. EU membership is not changing. It very unlikely there will be another treaty change before a referendum.
2. I think strategy is a bit more than saying we need to leave the EU. We should be discussing time scale to leave, method, etc, etc. Remember its 2/3 years to a referendum.
3. You do understand the one thing we do not want is TRADE TREATIES.

[anonymous-user]

NicD said:

I explained what a plan is, and this at this early stage, it would be premature.

Stop being disingenuous. You said what your idea of a plan was. Which you consider contains too much detail to be required now.

UKIP's "plan", so called, consists of a piece of A4 with "Leave the EU" written on it.

There's a massive gulf between your idea of a plan and UKIP's "plan".

Many people would like a clearer idea of how UKIP will achieve the exit, the timescale, the potential advantages (financial and otherwise) and the potential disadvantages (ditto).

If Labour had a "plan" to eliminate the deficit by the end of 2015, that would sound very appealing. But it's a hopeless ideal without some idea of how it will be done.

[brenflys777]

C

Mrr T said:

brenflys777 said:

I don't think the insults are helpful to either side. Personal insults distract and I find a strong correlation between people who say 'dear leader' about any politician other than Jong Un and poor debating points... however..

We've been around the houses before about UKIPs exit plans. Unless you see 'cast iron' plans you won't be content, but the membership of the EU is not a static event. Things can and doubtless will change in the EU and until we know exactly what the conditions are at the time, including the state of the EU and our own economy, we can't be absolute.

UKIP have given a strategic plan for what they want to achieve, trade agreements with the EU and the ability to trade with other countries on bilateral terms not the EUs and of course we want to extract ourselves from the EU's social control. That's the strategic plan and the options for how to achieve that will vary depending on circumstance.

I can understand why you'd want it to be more specific but the EU isn't static. If you asked the pro EU side to be specific about what will happen in terms of us staying in they can give you the strategic aim of ever closer union, but not when they will take more powers from the UK or how. In the case of Cameron he gives a very basic strategic view of 'reforming' the EU and getting a better deal for the UK, but his inability to set the strategic bottom line (Ukips being EU exit) means it's next to useless.

I think until the pro EU side can define exactly what our membership means, it's perfectly reasonable for UKIP to give a direction of travel but not the means. The UK is a much better prospect than most of the EU, we are net contributors and they need us more than we need them IMO, if we could have a membership which brought us back to the economic trading group that the UK public have been told the EU was, then I'd be perfectly happy to stay, but before any referendum the pro EU side need to be honest about what continued membership means. Ever closer union.

Edited by brenflys777 on Wednesday 24th December 10:25

Considering how willing kippers are to insult the Conservative party I think referring to Farage as the great leader is light jesting.

As for the rest of your post it show all the normal understanding of UKIP.

1. EU membership is not changing. It very unlikely there will be another treaty change before a referendum.
2. I think strategy is a bit more than saying we need to leave the EU. We should be discussing time scale to leave, method, etc, etc. Remember its 2/3 years to a referendum.
3. You do understand the one thing we do not want is TRADE TREATIES.

Point by point.

Light jesting or silly name calling? Either way it usefully identifies a type of person. I've voted conservative, now I would probably vote UKIP, name calling just makes it more tribal and is probably only useful for preventing the return of those voters.

Thank you.

1. EU has completely changed since last referendum. The EU has substantially changed even in the time Cameron has been in office.

2. UKIP have discussed the options and timescales, they haven't committed to one yet.

3. Your reply doesn't seem relevant to what I wrote, but if you mean I want trade not restrictions on trade that would make sense.

[TKF]

NicD said:

DeanR32 said:

So all of it appeals. No specifics as such?

No, not all policies, not this one, for example, unless the deficit had been paid off.

– Inheritance tax will be abolished.


Otherwise, they look a fantastic set of policies.

What about privatising the NHS? Or binning the right to paid holidays, sick leave and maternity leave?

[brenflys777]

TKF said:

NicD said:

DeanR32 said:

So all of it appeals. No specifics as such?

No, not all policies, not this one, for example, unless the deficit had been paid off.

– Inheritance tax will be abolished.


Otherwise, they look a fantastic set of policies.

What about privatising the NHS? Or binning the right to paid holidays, sick leave and maternity leave?

Those aren't ukip policies? The NHS one sounds like Labour or Con practical application and PFI. Can you link to a current UKIP policy document for that or are you mistaken?

[Scuffers]

TKF said:

What about privatising the NHS? Or binning the right to paid holidays, sick leave and maternity leave?

see this is the kind of post that just winds people up

None of those items are on UKIP's policy list, and never have been.

but this does not stop you (and a million other stupid sheep on twater) posting it up every five minutes.

And whilst you bring up the NHS (again!) you think in it's current form it's just fine and dandy?

if you do the numbers, it would be cheaper on average for every taxpayer in the country to be paying Bupa or the like than their current contribution to the great NHS (and no, this is not me making a case for privatising it)

let's be clear, the NHS is a mess, it's way too big, and put quite frankly, we simply can't afford to keep on with it like this, it;s an ever growing money pit that nobody seems to be able to get a handle on.

No party so far has owned up to this basic fact, they all rattle on about ring fencing and protecting, whilst what Labour did was sell it down the road with PFI, and the previous tories with internal markets.

Personally, I would love somebody to come up with a comprehensive plan for how to deal with it, my own preference would be to split it up into more manageable units, with the only centralised functions being purchasing, HR and oversight of contract negotiations.

putting that aside, all the talk now of the NHS being safe with XYZ is nothing more than words, it;s not safe now and is getting worse day by day, whilst there are still a lot of people and companies getting rich off the back of it.

[TKF]

brenflys777 said:

TKF said:

NicD said:

DeanR32 said:

So all of it appeals. No specifics as such?

No, not all policies, not this one, for example, unless the deficit had been paid off.

– Inheritance tax will be abolished.


Otherwise, they look a fantastic set of policies.

What about privatising the NHS? Or binning the right to paid holidays, sick leave and maternity leave?

Those aren't ukip policies? The NHS one sounds like Labour or Con practical application and PFI. Can you link to a current UKIP policy document for that or are you mistaken?

Google "Farage NHS" and you'll see what his real thoughts are, not the populist policies they'll never get the chance to enact. He wants a US style insurance system.

ETA of course it's all a MSM smear

[Scuffers]

TKF said:

Google "Farage NHS" and you'll see what his real thoughts are, not the populist policies they'll never get the chance to enact. He wants a US style insurance system.

ETA of course it's all a MSM smear

of course it is, and your just another sheep repeating it.

He has covered this several times on camera, it was considered, and rejected over 2 years ago.

but I guess you know better? you are some kind of mind reader?

[TKF]

I guess he wouldn't be the first politician to make a u-turn but personally I don't think it's plausible to change your mind 180deg on something as fundamental as the NHS.

Plus I thought he was supposed to be a different kind of politician? He's constantly flitting from one idea to the complete opposite, standing by your manifesto one day, calling it drivel the next.

[DeanR32]

TKF said:

brenflys777 said:

TKF said:

NicD said:

DeanR32 said:

So all of it appeals. No specifics as such?

No, not all policies, not this one, for example, unless the deficit had been paid off.

– Inheritance tax will be abolished.


Otherwise, they look a fantastic set of policies.

What about privatising the NHS? Or binning the right to paid holidays, sick leave and maternity leave?

Those aren't ukip policies? The NHS one sounds like Labour or Con practical application and PFI. Can you link to a current UKIP policy document for that or are you mistaken?

Google "Farage NHS" and you'll see what his real thoughts are, not the populist policies they'll never get the chance to enact. He wants a US style insurance system.

ETA of course it's all a MSM smear

I'm sure the last time I heard him speak, he spoke of looking into privatising the NHS. Of course he wouldn't put it on his list of policies, as it's not what the majority wants to hear.

He also spoke of giving NHS staff from overseas flexible work permits. The ones that are already here and working in it. That sounds like his plan is to give permits to everyone from overseas. Not sure what he'd do with these people once the permits run out though.

What do we reckon on introducing grammar schools?

[brenflys777]

TKF said:

brenflys777 said:

TKF said:

NicD said:

DeanR32 said:

So all of it appeals. No specifics as such?

No, not all policies, not this one, for example, unless the deficit had been paid off.

– Inheritance tax will be abolished.


Otherwise, they look a fantastic set of policies.

What about privatising the NHS? Or binning the right to paid holidays, sick leave and maternity leave?

Those aren't ukip policies? The NHS one sounds like Labour or Con practical application and PFI. Can you link to a current UKIP policy document for that or are you mistaken?

Google "Farage NHS" and you'll see what his real thoughts are, not the populist policies they'll never get the chance to enact. He wants a US style insurance system.

ETA of course it's all a MSM smear

Repeating something which isn't true over and over doesn't make it more valid. I value the NHS, UKIP aren't planning to privatise it or do any of the other policies you mentioned.

It is an effective smear though. In Middleton UKIP were only 600 votes away from winning the seat from Labour. The campaign from Labour continually stated UKIPs policy was privatisation.... it wasn't and the UKIP candidate said he would absolutely not support privatisation. I grew up there and quite a few Facebook comments from relatives and friends who live there suggested that Labour had successfully misrepresented policy on people who otherwise supported UKIP.

Personally I found it quite distasteful as my mum died in North Manchester General after getting MRSA on Labours watch in a hospital that found itself unable to cope with being asked to do so much for so many and is now lumbered with PFI costs too.

I've heard Farage talk about what will likely happen to the NHS if we don't get a grip on immigration, and I'd agree that the future for the NHS would be bleak and likely end with a US style system, at the moment I'd also agree with UKIP that it's not too late to save what we've got.

Misrepresenting UKIP policy has been a consistent feature of Lab/Lib and Con campaigns, it's no wonder they are so reluctant to debate actual policies as they struggle to explain basics like why they all agree on borrowing money for increased foreign aid whilst devastating cuts to the Police occur.

[TKF]

It's almost like he's making it up as he goes along.

[TKF]

brenflys777 said:

Repeating something which isn't true over and over doesn't make it more valid.

Leave the EU and everything will be rosy. Repeat ad nauseum and you'll get votes.

[brenflys777]

TKF said:

brenflys777 said:

Repeating something which isn't true over and over doesn't make it more valid.

Leave the EU and everything will be rosy. Repeat ad nauseum and you'll get votes.

I'd ask you to supply a source for that but you seem keen on just making stuff up and passing it off as UKIP material!

I don't think UKIP have said that getting out of the EU will solve every problem, but it sounds like a good start and a guarantee that we take responsibility for solving our problems and stop blaming everything on the EU when we should be in charge of our own future.