UKIP - The Future - Volume 3
Discussion
steveT350C said:
185
World steel production been enjoying continuous growth since 1970. World production 3 times higher than in 1970
http://www.worldsteel.org/dms/internetDocumentList...
ironic when you consider the reasons used to shut down the UK steel industry.World steel production been enjoying continuous growth since 1970. World production 3 times higher than in 1970
http://www.worldsteel.org/dms/internetDocumentList...
JustAnotherLogin said:
Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
Ah yes, the loony left idea that every student is graduate material and that working jobs are no longer needed in the economy. When the education system starts reliably churning out 100% output of GCSE C+ students, we might consider that a viable idea, but until then, you need to find jobs for all working-age participants.It might stagger someone who has never had a real job to know that there are a good many working men and women in manual trades who would not swap for a 'nice' office.
Digga said:
JustAnotherLogin said:
Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
Ah yes, the loony left idea that every student is graduate material and that working jobs are no longer needed in the economy. When the education system starts reliably churning out 100% output of GCSE C+ students, we might consider that a viable idea, but until then, you need to find jobs for all working-age participants.It might stagger someone who has never had a real job to know that there are a good many working men and women in manual trades who would not swap for a 'nice' office.
It's surprising how little of the world some people know.Digga said:
JustAnotherLogin said:
Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
Ah yes, the loony left idea that every student is graduate material and that working jobs are no longer needed in the economy. When the education system starts reliably churning out 100% output of GCSE C+ students, we might consider that a viable idea, but until then, you need to find jobs for all working-age participants.It might stagger someone who has never had a real job to know that there are a good many working men and women in manual trades who would not swap for a 'nice' office.
Digga said:
JustAnotherLogin said:
Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
Ah yes, the loony left idea that every student is graduate material and that working jobs are no longer needed in the economy. When the education system starts reliably churning out 100% output of GCSE C+ students, we might consider that a viable idea, but until then, you need to find jobs for all working-age participants.It might stagger someone who has never had a real job to know that there are a good many working men and women in manual trades who would not swap for a 'nice' office.
Except the looney left will churn out 100% GCSE C+ students, by lowering exam standards.
JustAnotherLogin said:
So go on then, tell me.
Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
If Fred is wrong, what is the reason?
There were a number of industries in which we could no longer compete due to their reliance on low cost labour, from Textiles to Toys. Steel wasn't one of them. A look online suggests that the average US steelworker costs around $77 an hour (total cost not just pay), not sure how much their UK equivalent is on but I suspect is considerably above the national average. Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
If Fred is wrong, what is the reason?
Steelmaking as just one example. Energy costs can be up to 40% of the operating costs, despite efficiency improvements and investments which have reduced the energy in Cj/tonne of steel by approximately 38% (31.7>19.6) Source EEF.
Labour costs are relatively minor with modern equipment, though not insignificant. BOF plan 6%, EAF steel 4%, Seamless Tube 7%. Source Metals Consulting International.
Basic problem is overcapacity, and various rationalisations that have taken place in Europe giving promises to preserve jobs and producion to get the EU to waive things through is struggling to keep those promises, faced with a 30% reduction in demand following the battering construction took with the financial crisis. Almost 50% of steel production goes into construction.
Yet American steel producers are in very much better shape, even when competing with the Latin American producers, who have a lower wage structure. The reason they can compete is partly down to reduced energy costs due to shale gas, and American market is expanding.
That's before we even get onto the massive expansion in capacity in China. When they hit the buffers it will be staggering.
But it's high labour costs in Europe (and Japan) that are solely causing the problem according to standard response no 456 from central office cut and paste resource.
Labour costs are relatively minor with modern equipment, though not insignificant. BOF plan 6%, EAF steel 4%, Seamless Tube 7%. Source Metals Consulting International.
Basic problem is overcapacity, and various rationalisations that have taken place in Europe giving promises to preserve jobs and producion to get the EU to waive things through is struggling to keep those promises, faced with a 30% reduction in demand following the battering construction took with the financial crisis. Almost 50% of steel production goes into construction.
Yet American steel producers are in very much better shape, even when competing with the Latin American producers, who have a lower wage structure. The reason they can compete is partly down to reduced energy costs due to shale gas, and American market is expanding.
That's before we even get onto the massive expansion in capacity in China. When they hit the buffers it will be staggering.
But it's high labour costs in Europe (and Japan) that are solely causing the problem according to standard response no 456 from central office cut and paste resource.
JustAnotherLogin said:
It is looking a bit that way Mrr B, except I think there are more losers:
UKIP for a few reasons:
a) because they have taken a hit in bad PR already and you don't get that back so easily
b) because they do appear to have been suppressing what they knew until now - and thats the sort of thing they claim they don't do
c) because they have lost their "where's Amjid" proof that they are not racist
Labour - possibly. I hope someone will probe further into these suggestions of a labour plot to rig the UKIP selection. My reason being that as I said before, any act designed to undermine the legitimacy of the democratic process is extremely serious
And then there are the conservatives. I don't think they have taken much of a hit so far - outside threads such as this I don't think many people will have noticed. But it could hurt later - if only because it will be used as a weapon by the other parties. Yet the Tories do have the chance to clean it up - if they expel him soon citing new evidence that had been suppressed by UKIP etc then they could come out OK. Or leave a weapon for the others in their midst
On your points:UKIP for a few reasons:
a) because they have taken a hit in bad PR already and you don't get that back so easily
b) because they do appear to have been suppressing what they knew until now - and thats the sort of thing they claim they don't do
c) because they have lost their "where's Amjid" proof that they are not racist
Labour - possibly. I hope someone will probe further into these suggestions of a labour plot to rig the UKIP selection. My reason being that as I said before, any act designed to undermine the legitimacy of the democratic process is extremely serious
And then there are the conservatives. I don't think they have taken much of a hit so far - outside threads such as this I don't think many people will have noticed. But it could hurt later - if only because it will be used as a weapon by the other parties. Yet the Tories do have the chance to clean it up - if they expel him soon citing new evidence that had been suppressed by UKIP etc then they could come out OK. Or leave a weapon for the others in their midst
a) Kinda, but they are proving a bit teflon to far more serious things. This didn't go as the Tories wanted so mitigated that mostly.
b) Agree. Doing so again though more on his skin colour doesn't say a lot about anyone though other than he is far more likely to get away with s
t.c) Again kinda agree, but he was token proof and Ukip are probably better off without " where is Amjid the liability" tag that seems to be coming.
d) There's probably more to come and the poop is going to be sticking to the blue rosette from now.
JustAnotherLogin said:
So go on then, tell me.
Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
If Fred is wrong, what is the reason?
Modern steel plants pay good wages, the old manual stuff is mainly automated. Energy costs dominate.Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
If Fred is wrong, what is the reason?
Yazar said:
steveT350C said:
During a self imposed career sabbatical I worked for a year as a labourer (no skills) helping build the travel lodge in Norwich. Happiest I had ever been, and the fittest.
Alan Partridge is forever grateful.
Premier Inn it was, not Travel lodge. Have stayed there since and had quite a sense of pride knowing that, although just a labourer, I had help build it.
Happy days
FiF said:
Steelmaking as just one example. Energy costs can be up to 40% of the operating costs, despite efficiency improvements and investments which have reduced the energy in Cj/tonne of steel by approximately 38% (31.7>19.6) Source EEF.
Labour costs are relatively minor with modern equipment, though not insignificant. BOF plan 6%, EAF steel 4%, Seamless Tube 7%. Source Metals Consulting International.
Basic problem is overcapacity, and various rationalisations that have taken place in Europe giving promises to preserve jobs and producion to get the EU to waive things through is struggling to keep those promises, faced with a 30% reduction in demand following the battering construction took with the financial crisis. Almost 50% of steel production goes into construction.
Yet American steel producers are in very much better shape, even when competing with the Latin American producers, who have a lower wage structure. The reason they can compete is partly down to reduced energy costs due to shale gas, and American market is expanding.
That's before we even get onto the massive expansion in capacity in China. When they hit the buffers it will be staggering.
But it's high labour costs in Europe (and Japan) that are solely causing the problem according to standard response no 456 from central office cut and paste resource.
pretty much exactly what Jim Ratcliffe said 12 months ago.Labour costs are relatively minor with modern equipment, though not insignificant. BOF plan 6%, EAF steel 4%, Seamless Tube 7%. Source Metals Consulting International.
Basic problem is overcapacity, and various rationalisations that have taken place in Europe giving promises to preserve jobs and producion to get the EU to waive things through is struggling to keep those promises, faced with a 30% reduction in demand following the battering construction took with the financial crisis. Almost 50% of steel production goes into construction.
Yet American steel producers are in very much better shape, even when competing with the Latin American producers, who have a lower wage structure. The reason they can compete is partly down to reduced energy costs due to shale gas, and American market is expanding.
That's before we even get onto the massive expansion in capacity in China. When they hit the buffers it will be staggering.
But it's high labour costs in Europe (and Japan) that are solely causing the problem according to standard response no 456 from central office cut and paste resource.
WinstonWolf said:
Digga said:
JustAnotherLogin said:
Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
Ah yes, the loony left idea that every student is graduate material and that working jobs are no longer needed in the economy. When the education system starts reliably churning out 100% output of GCSE C+ students, we might consider that a viable idea, but until then, you need to find jobs for all working-age participants.It might stagger someone who has never had a real job to know that there are a good many working men and women in manual trades who would not swap for a 'nice' office.
It's surprising how little of the world some people know.If the pay and conditions in those industries were so wonderful, why did the unions bring those industries to their knees with their ever higher demands. So that they could keep "parity" with other industries with which they have nothing in common.
UKIP talk the talk about the left behind workers. The answer is not to hark back to low paid **** jobs that no-one actually wants. You can see that by the attitudes of so many of them. We should be looking to raise education standards so that there are more choices for everyone, and expand new industries where the workers might actually get paid the sort of wage they want.
Those industries did not collapse because of Thatcher, or high energy prices or any claptrap like that. Apart from the fact that many heavy industries are bigger now than they ever were in monetary terms (if not as % of GDP), they have shrunk as % of GDP or in real terms because of higher costs (labour, safety); and unions. Go dig out the figures of turnover per year. The shrinkage such that there was started before Thatcher, went on after her and before the newer energy policies.
Its ironic that these views hark back to the heyday of the UK and its industrial might. The leaders of that might then are the ones that would be leading new industries now.
JustAnotherLogin said:
Those industries did not collapse because of Thatcher, or high energy prices or any claptrap like that.
Rather the opposite, British Steel became one of the most efficient producers after privatisation - however you are wrong to assert that green taxes did no harm to the industry. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/en...fido said:
JustAnotherLogin said:
Those industries did not collapse because of Thatcher, or high energy prices or any claptrap like that.
Rather the opposite, British Steel became one of the most efficient producers after privatisation - however you are wrong to assert that green taxes did no harm to the industry. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/en...Not all of the industries listed in the original article get compensation, but as I said, they were shrinking long before the energy policy
JustAnotherLogin said:
fido said:
JustAnotherLogin said:
Those industries did not collapse because of Thatcher, or high energy prices or any claptrap like that.
Rather the opposite, British Steel became one of the most efficient producers after privatisation - however you are wrong to assert that green taxes did no harm to the industry. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/en...Not all of the industries listed in the original article get compensation, but as I said, they were shrinking long before the energy policy
"In steel, and aluminium, and petroleum refining, and glass, and chemicals, and cement......"
JustAnotherLogin said:
But it wasn't rebuttal, just repeating the same thing.
FWIW I don't think you intended any racial slur
Jogon and wc98 can vote for whom they want. Their rationale is still racist though
another fFWIW I don't think you intended any racial slur
Jogon and wc98 can vote for whom they want. Their rationale is still racist though
kwit of the highest order. i would not vote for any politician with a history of corruption. if a person from a culture where what i would term as corruption is the norm ,and not seen as a bad thing , it would be optimistic of me at best to expect that person to suddenly decide to act in a different way because they had become a politician. that is not racist,it is observing the situation the way it is.JustAnotherLogin said:
So go on then, tell me.
Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
If Fred is wrong, what is the reason?
what would you term a low salary ? salaries for coded welders and cnc machinists with programming capability in the central belt in the firms servicing the oil industry are 50k plus,with many people earning 60 to 70k with overtime .Why does it matter that stuff like steel making with its low salaries, horrible working conditions and low profits are replaced by highly paid jobs in pharmaceuticals, aerospace, space etc? Is there something wrong with the fact that these jobs are done in nice air condition offices in safety rather than hot dangerous factories?
If Fred is wrong, what is the reason?
bear in mind that salary in most areas of scotland would give a standard of living 2 to 3 times that of someone living in london on 2 to 3 times the earnings.
FredClogs said:
steveT350C said:
Looks like UKIP new for 6 months about illegal immigrants working in Bashirs Resaurant.
http://order-order.com/2015/01/26/bashir-lied-abou...
Looks like the new politics and politicians which Farage claims to represent is just the same as the old politics and politicians.http://order-order.com/2015/01/26/bashir-lied-abou...
This is however the dawn of a New Age of politics.
My arse.
DeanR32 said:
I haven't read the couple pages between now and this post, but isn't Farage doing pretty much this with his wife?
depends on her ability to do the job . when an attorney general is stating it is a problem in this pc age,it is likely to be a serious issue. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/23/do...Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff