UKIP - The Future - Volume 3

[FiF]

Mrr T said:

However, for the first time in this parliament we have a tory party in which a majority of MP’s are EU sceptics. You keep claiming credit for UKIP changing the tory party but it had already changed.

Had it?

It's true that the intake after 2010GE contained the most Eurosceptic set of Conservative MPs.

But the majority were too scared to declare their true feelings. Indeed only ten MPs, one of whom was Douglas Carswell,, declared their position by joining the Better Off Out Group.

Yet there have been reports of 100, even 200 in the most fanciful reports, of Conservative MPs now of Eurosceptic persuasion.

What's caused that change? Is it UKIP? Is it fear of losing their seats to whoever? Is it recognition of the argument for Brexit and change of mind?

To say that the party had already changed is stretching it frankly. None of us know if the change is genuine or not, maybe simply self preservation without doing what's right for the country. If it's the latter, regardless of which side you're on, their attitude, ie self preservation above all else, is cynical in the extreme.

[ralphrj]

Esseesse said:

Why can there not be a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty after it has been signed? Why can it not be 'unsigned'?

Because it would be a bit like having a referendum today on whether we should have hosted the Olympics 2 and a half years ago.

The Treaty came into effect on 1st December 2009 and trying to undo the changes it implemented would be so difficult that there would be no alternative but to carry on with things as they are currently.

After ratification the only possibility of an incoming government being able to withdraw support expired on 30th November 2009.

Cameron's pledge to hold a referendum was made in September 2007 before the treaty had been through the House of Commons and when it looked like Gordon Brown was going to call snap election (Brown finally ruled it out 9 days after Cameron's pledge).

Perhaps most importantly for euro-sceptics the main reason we shouldn't withdraw from the Treaty is that it contains a process to secede from the European Union. If we were to withdraw from the Treaty and then try to leave the EU then we might find ourselves stuck in a legal quagmire.

[Zod]

Esseesse said:

Mrr T said:

The Conservatives promised a vote on the Lisbon treaty. However, the Lisbon treaty was already signed by the time they came to power so any referendum would have been a complete waste of money at a time of serious economic difficulties.

Why can there not be a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty after it has been signed? Why can it not be 'unsigned'?

It cannot legally be "unsigned". We'd have to leave the EU.

[Esseesse]

ralphrj said:

Esseesse said:

Why can there not be a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty after it has been signed? Why can it not be 'unsigned'?

Because it would be a bit like having a referendum today on whether we should have hosted the Olympics 2 and a half years ago.

This is a poor analogy. I'm, not suggesting you can go back in time and not sign the Treaty, just questioning why you cannot tear it up today.

It's more like wanting to delete a program you installed on your computer 2 years ago. But the IT bod says you're not allowed. Some would suggest ignoring IT...

[Esseesse]

Zod said:

Esseesse said:

Mrr T said:

The Conservatives promised a vote on the Lisbon treaty. However, the Lisbon treaty was already signed by the time they came to power so any referendum would have been a complete waste of money at a time of serious economic difficulties.

Why can there not be a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty after it has been signed? Why can it not be 'unsigned'?

It cannot legally be "unsigned". We'd have to leave the EU.

Surely what is legal (especially at a national level) is open to interpretation? Legally I suppose Greece should pay back it's debt?

[fatboy18]

Made me laugh today watching breakfast time on BBC, they were on Tyneside watching a ship unload Coal which had been imported from Russia! wtf! All those pits which were shut down in the UK in the early 80s
Tragic. the communities that then tore each other apart and the unemployment that followed. Its about time this country started looking after itself.

[s2art]

Zod said:

It cannot legally be "unsigned". We'd have to leave the EU.

Nonsense. If there is anything we have learned about the EU, its that everything is negotiable if there is enough political clout to see it through. I dont see Germany or France being kicked out for breaking financial rules a few years back, they just negotiated a change.

[Zod]

Esseesse said:

Zod said:

Esseesse said:

Mrr T said:

The Conservatives promised a vote on the Lisbon treaty. However, the Lisbon treaty was already signed by the time they came to power so any referendum would have been a complete waste of money at a time of serious economic difficulties.

Why can there not be a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty after it has been signed? Why can it not be 'unsigned'?

It cannot legally be "unsigned". We'd have to leave the EU.

Surely what is legal (especially at a national level) is open to interpretation? Legally I suppose Greece should pay back it's debt?

There is ceasing to be legally bound which is what would be the result if we could unsign the treaty and there is breaching the terms or even repudiating the contract, which is what Greece is threatening in relation to its debts.

France and Italy take the attitude to the EU Treaties that they comply with as much or as little as they want when they want.

[Zod]

s2art said:

Zod said:

It cannot legally be "unsigned". We'd have to leave the EU.

Nonsense. If there is anything we have learned about the EU, its that everything is negotiable if there is enough political clout to see it through. I dont see Germany or France being kicked out for breaking financial rules a few years back, they just negotiated a change.

Not nonsense.

See my post above this one. Saying that we can emulate France is not the same as saying we can unsign a treaty.

[Esseesse]

fatboy18 said:

Made me laugh today watching breakfast time on BBC, they were on Tyneside watching a ship unload Coal which had been imported from Russia! wtf! All those pits which were shut down in the UK in the early 80s
Tragic. the communities that then tore each other apart and the unemployment that followed. Its about time this country started looking after itself.

I'm starting to come round to the idea that there are some industries that are worth protecting, although I'm generally against protectionism. Industries vital to fuel the country, and build things (ships)... so fuel (coal), steel/iron and aluminium refining perhaps. Better to pay over the odds for people to work and sustain these industries than pay them to do nothing.

[Zod]

Esseesse said:

fatboy18 said:

Made me laugh today watching breakfast time on BBC, they were on Tyneside watching a ship unload Coal which had been imported from Russia! wtf! All those pits which were shut down in the UK in the early 80s
Tragic. the communities that then tore each other apart and the unemployment that followed. Its about time this country started looking after itself.

I'm starting to come round to the idea that there are some industries that are worth protecting, although I'm generally against protectionism. Industries vital to fuel the country, and build things (ships)... so fuel (coal), steel/iron and aluminium refining perhaps. Better to pay over the odds for people to work and sustain these industries than pay them to do nothing.

How many of the chronic doleites do you think are ex miners or steelworkers?

[Gaspode]

fatboy18 said:

Made me laugh today watching breakfast time on BBC, they were on Tyneside watching a ship unload Coal which had been imported from Russia! wtf! All those pits which were shut down in the UK in the early 80s
Tragic. the communities that then tore each other apart and the unemployment that followed. Its about time this country started looking after itself.

The coal mines that were closed down in the 1980s were uneconomic, they cost the UK taxpayer £3 per tonne of coal manufactured, and foreign coal was 25% cheaper. The closures were of course political as much as they were economic - it was seen by the government of the day vital to breaking the power of the Trades Union, the NUM being on of the most belligerent.

The cost to society generally of closing the coal mines was undoubtedly very high, but the alternatives were really not too palatable to anyone apart from old-school socialists.

When you use phrases like "Its about time this country started looking after itself.", it carries a clear implication of introducing degrees of protectionism, public subsidy, and centralised control that haven't been used in this country for many years now. Radical stuff indeed, and not one which I suspect many people would buy into?

[Esseesse]

Gaspode said:

When you use phrases like "Its about time this country started looking after itself.", it carries a clear implication of introducing degrees of protectionism, public subsidy, and centralised control that haven't been used in this country for many years now. Radical stuff indeed, and not one which I suspect many people would buy into?

Interesting discussion, because previously they must have thought that sort of thing was for the best? I think there is often an assumption in many things that we always now know best, and that it's often not necessarily true.

[Scuffers]

Gaspode said:

fatboy18 said:

Made me laugh today watching breakfast time on BBC, they were on Tyneside watching a ship unload Coal which had been imported from Russia! wtf! All those pits which were shut down in the UK in the early 80s
Tragic. the communities that then tore each other apart and the unemployment that followed. Its about time this country started looking after itself.

The coal mines that were closed down in the 1980s were uneconomic, they cost the UK taxpayer £3 per tonne of coal manufactured, and foreign coal was 25% cheaper. The closures were of course political as much as they were economic - it was seen by the government of the day vital to breaking the power of the Trades Union, the NUM being on of the most belligerent.

The cost to society generally of closing the coal mines was undoubtedly very high, but the alternatives were really not too palatable to anyone apart from old-school socialists.

that was only true back then because the market was being rigged and the unions were strangling the industry.

Look at how much coal we import now and where it comes from, then tell us how cheap it is (compared to us pulling it out of our own ground).

the reason coal in this country is finished is because it's not a level playing field, nothing more.

Then look at how we are subsidising wind companies to flatten forests and put up wind turbines that do jack st...

[fatboy18]

Zod said:

Esseesse said:

fatboy18 said:

Made me laugh today watching breakfast time on BBC, they were on Tyneside watching a ship unload Coal which had been imported from Russia! wtf! All those pits which were shut down in the UK in the early 80s
Tragic. the communities that then tore each other apart and the unemployment that followed. Its about time this country started looking after itself.

I'm starting to come round to the idea that there are some industries that are worth protecting, although I'm generally against protectionism. Industries vital to fuel the country, and build things (ships)... so fuel (coal), steel/iron and aluminium refining perhaps. Better to pay over the odds for people to work and sustain these industries than pay them to do nothing.

How many of the chronic doleites do you think are ex miners or steelworkers?

Absolutely no idea, but all I see of the UK now is many of our industrial waste lands being turned into Hi rise offices and pent house apartments for foreign investors. As we talked of earlier, not everyone is cut out to work in an office. The Skilled workers we used to have in Shipyards, Sadly many of those skills have now been lost and one of the biggest things that people forget is the Pride these workers used to have working in their industries. Take that away from people and it takes a long time to rebuild lives.
I know we live in a Global market, but if I am honest I would rather NOT live in a global market, I would rather have us all working for our Country first and not be reliant on imports, we need to look at different sources of energy, be it water power or something else. Im not at all keen on the Fracking idea, splitting rocks to get out gas sounds like a recipe for an environmental disaster and having seen some documentaries about the pitfalls in the USA, it makes me very worried. Water is life and if fracking buggers that up we have no chance.. Oh I know, Yet more importing from France!

Thatcher was out to smash the unions at any cost, sadly she did it. Not saying the industries didn't need a massive shake up, because they did. but the price paid was far too high IMO.

Edited by fatboy18 on Wednesday 28th January 16:46

[Gaspode]

fatboy18 said:

bsolutely no idea, but all I see of the UK now is many of our industrial waste lands being turned into Hi rise offices and pent house apartments for foreign investors. As we talked of earlier, not everyone is cut out to work in an office. The Skilled workers we used to have in Shipyards, Sadly many of those skills have now been lost and one of the biggest things that people forget is the Pride these workers used to have working in their industries. Take that away from people and it takes a long time to rebuild lives.
I know we live in a Global market, but if I am honest I would rather NOT live in a global market, I would rather have us all working for our Country first and not be reliant on imports, we need to look at different sources of energy, be it water power or something else. Im not at all keen on the Fracking idea, splitting rocks to get out gas sounds like a recipe for an environmental disaster and having seen some documentaries about the pitfalls in the USA, it makes me very worried. Water is life and if fracking buggers that up we have no chance.. Oh I know, Yet more importing from France!

Thatcher was out to smash the unions at any cost, sadly she did it. Not saying the industries needed a massive shake up, because they did. but the price paid was far too high IMO.

I have a great deal of sympathy with this point of view, it's one of the reasons why I'm a keen Europhile: the UK should treat its infrastructure and core industries the way the French and the Germans look after theirs.

[ralphrj]

Esseesse said:

This is a poor analogy. I'm, not suggesting you can go back in time and not sign the Treaty, just questioning why you cannot tear it up today.

It's more like wanting to delete a program you installed on your computer 2 years ago. But the IT bod says you're not allowed. Some would suggest ignoring IT...

If you want to go down that route, then it would be like deleting a program you installed on your computer to calculate your tax return 2 years ago. Deleting the program won't change the fact that the tax return was completed and sent to HMRC.

Ratifying the Treaty allowed various things to happen 5 years ago. Some of those things cannot be undone by withdrawing from the Treaty because they have already happened.

Tearing up the treaty would be like the Queen saying that, as the successor to King John, she withdraws the Monarch's support for the Magna Carta. It would be pointless and simply ignored.

[Einion Yrth]

Gaspode said:

I have a great deal of sympathy with this point of view, it's one of the reasons why I'm a keen Europhile: the UK should treat its infrastructure and core industries the way the French and the Germans look after theirs.

We've already sold most of it to them.

[Gaspode]

Einion Yrth said:

We've already sold most of it to them.

Yes, it's a real pisser isn't it? That's where the socialist in me comes out, I think selling the UK's power industry to the French and Germans was a colossal mistake, they would never have permitted it to happen the other way round. But that's not an EU problem, it's the result of having a government obsessed with privatising nationalised industries instead of managing them properly.

[fatboy18]

Gaspode said:

Einion Yrth said:

We've already sold most of it to them.

Yes, it's a real pisser isn't it? That's where the socialist in me comes out, I think selling the UK's power industry to the French and Germans was a colossal mistake, they would never have permitted it to happen the other way round. But that's not an EU problem, it's the result of having a government obsessed with privatising nationalised industries instead of managing them properly.

Well said