UKIP - The Future - Volume 3
Discussion
JustAnotherLogin said:
steveT350C said:
Not billions, just the West Midlands....
@UKIPWellingboro: Survation Poll shows UKIP now leading in the Midlands
UKIP 35.6%
CON 34.5%
LAB 26.4%
LIB DEM 3.0%
GREENS 0% (!)
Vote @UKIP Get @UKIP in W.
And likely get a labour-snp-libdem govt@UKIPWellingboro: Survation Poll shows UKIP now leading in the Midlands
UKIP 35.6%
CON 34.5%
LAB 26.4%
LIB DEM 3.0%
GREENS 0% (!)
Vote @UKIP Get @UKIP in W.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/28/el...
I don't want a socialist government at all.
I don't want to see any party with a leftie leader in government.
I don't see much difference between Miliband, Cameron and Clegg. They all did the same course at university, and it is no surprise that they all ended up with broadly similar views.
Axionknight said:
EDIT: Question aimed at JALI.
Hypothetically speaking, would you vote for UKIP in your area if that vote helped keep Labour or the Lib Dems out? Or would you vote Tory regardless?
Hypothetically yes. Hypothetically speaking, would you vote for UKIP in your area if that vote helped keep Labour or the Lib Dems out? Or would you vote Tory regardless?
But only if I thought UKIPs policies were more appropriate than the other party.
I am not even convinced of that at present. These 100 reasons for example are packed with drivel
Axionknight said:
EDIT: Question aimed at JALI.
Hypothetically speaking, would you vote for UKIP in your area if that vote helped keep Labour or the Lib Dems out? Or would you vote Tory regardless?
What a good question.Hypothetically speaking, would you vote for UKIP in your area if that vote helped keep Labour or the Lib Dems out? Or would you vote Tory regardless?
There are huge swathes of the north where a vote for UKIP is the only option for people who want to keep Labour out.
JustAnotherLogin said:
Hypothetically yes.
But only if I thought UKIPs policies were more appropriate than the other party.
I am not even convinced of that at present. These 100 reasons for example are packed with drivel
There is a fair amount of "slack" present within them, I'll admit that - but as a quick bulletin as to what the party stands for, I'm convinced they'll do the trick for many people - that's what the political game is all about, I guess, I was similarly, due to my poor intellect (UKIP voter to be) pulled in during the run up to the 2010 election by David Cameron, he's a fine orator, no doubt. But only if I thought UKIPs policies were more appropriate than the other party.
I am not even convinced of that at present. These 100 reasons for example are packed with drivel
His party even told us in their 2010 manifesto that there should be no further extension of the EU's powers over the UK without the British peoples consent - how many regulations and directives has the EU passed since 2010 that affect the UK and our businesses? Why, over three thousand! Talk about red tape.....
But no matter, because Camerons attempts to use the UK veto and oppose the EU appointment of European Union lover Mr Juncker as President of the EC (called, The Drunker by the UK press) were very successful, right? Indeed, after his initial protestations, attempting to show the UK electorate he is a committed Eurosceptic (he isn't), his support for such reforms seemed to just melt away in the face of German and French opposition.
Has he ever claimed to be a euro-sceptic. I'll be honest I can't remember what he said of his own position in the lead up to him becoming leader or the election. I would certainly see him as less euro-sceptic than myself .
But the EU passing laws no more gives them "more powers" than does westminster gain "more powers" because it passes a new law prohibiting smoking in cars. More intrusive, perhaps. More red tape, perhaps. More powers? I think not
But the EU passing laws no more gives them "more powers" than does westminster gain "more powers" because it passes a new law prohibiting smoking in cars. More intrusive, perhaps. More red tape, perhaps. More powers? I think not
JustAnotherLogin said:
Has he ever claimed to be a euro-sceptic.
Maybe not, but he certainly attempts to give the aura of one off, to the public, with his talks of renegotiation and vetoes, all of which have not come to fruition.Powers are one thing, it suggests they have direct influence in the implementation and adherence to such laws/rules, but being forced to enact laws they want us to conform to is another thing entirely, and whilst it may be seen as a less objectionable position for our country to be in, I have to ask, when did you vote for a parliament in another country, chock full of people you've never heard of, in which we are an increasingly minority voice, to have the power to impress upon our elected parliament its desire for laws it has created?
I'm only 26 years old, so if I missed that vote, please let me know - I spoke to Zod a few pages back about our original inclusion in the European Economic Community, lead by Conservative leader Ted Heath, who said, (and I'm repeating myself here) that deeper integration would not happen "except with the full-hearted consent of the Parliaments and peoples of the new member countries" - have we given that consent?
No.
Will UKIP as a party deliver that? If they gain power, yes, but if they don't (and they obviously wont any time soon), but continue to grow in size as I am convinced they will, and in the future shape British politics so these questions are asked, and suitably answered, and, shock horror, even put forth to the British people in a free and fair referendum, then they will, in my eyes, have done their job, after that, whatever the outcome, we will see.
Don't get me wrong. As I have said before there are many things about the EU I would like to change. I too was not around at the time of the vote, but I agree that as far as I can tell what the people of this country voted to stay in was not what we have now. How much the population were lied to, how much our politcians were mistaken and how much it has just evolved so no-one is to blame I don't know.
But unfortunately I, and to a large extent any UK PM, is in the situation of not being able to choose what we want. Instead we have a binary choice - leave or stay. Now obviously there are many on here for whom that is an easy choice. For myself and probably a majority of the population it is less so. Polling suggests that even a relatively small change in our position with respect to the would lead to a sizeable majority wishing to stay in.
For many, whilst there is much we don't like, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. For many more even a small change would make that the case. For more still, the balance of benefits is less important than many other issues.
I would like to see a renegotiation
I would like to see the EU budget cut
I would like to see the EU books addressed properly
I would like to see new immigrants unable to claim benefits for 5 years
But I don't want all of that as much as I want a government who will govern effectively, in an economically responsible manner, for the benefit of the whole country
And as it stands, the conservatives are the only party that are close to giving me what I said in that last sentence, and they may even get me some of what I want the EU (though I accept not all, and perhaps not any). But whilst the rumours are that Farage is trying to make UKIP more economically literate - and is facing a hard fight with the rest of his party, the UKIP policies page and those "100 reasons to vote UKIP" do not give me any confidence that UKIP is close to being a party I could trust with my vote
But unfortunately I, and to a large extent any UK PM, is in the situation of not being able to choose what we want. Instead we have a binary choice - leave or stay. Now obviously there are many on here for whom that is an easy choice. For myself and probably a majority of the population it is less so. Polling suggests that even a relatively small change in our position with respect to the would lead to a sizeable majority wishing to stay in.
For many, whilst there is much we don't like, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. For many more even a small change would make that the case. For more still, the balance of benefits is less important than many other issues.
I would like to see a renegotiation
I would like to see the EU budget cut
I would like to see the EU books addressed properly
I would like to see new immigrants unable to claim benefits for 5 years
But I don't want all of that as much as I want a government who will govern effectively, in an economically responsible manner, for the benefit of the whole country
And as it stands, the conservatives are the only party that are close to giving me what I said in that last sentence, and they may even get me some of what I want the EU (though I accept not all, and perhaps not any). But whilst the rumours are that Farage is trying to make UKIP more economically literate - and is facing a hard fight with the rest of his party, the UKIP policies page and those "100 reasons to vote UKIP" do not give me any confidence that UKIP is close to being a party I could trust with my vote
JustAnotherLogin said:
Don't get me wrong. As I have said before there are many things about the EU I would like to change. I too was not around at the time of the vote, but I agree that as far as I can tell what the people of this country voted to stay in was not what we have now. How much the population were lied to, how much our politcians were mistaken and how much it has just evolved so no-one is to blame I don't know.
But unfortunately I, and to a large extent any UK PM, is in the situation of not being able to choose what we want. Instead we have a binary choice - leave or stay. Now obviously there are many on here for whom that is an easy choice. For myself and probably a majority of the population it is less so. Polling suggests that even a relatively small change in our position with respect to the would lead to a sizeable majority wishing to stay in.
For many, whilst there is much we don't like, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. For many more even a small change would make that the case. For more still, the balance of benefits is less important than many other issues.
I would like to see a renegotiation
I would like to see the EU budget cut
I would like to see the EU books addressed properly
I would like to see new immigrants unable to claim benefits for 5 years
But I don't want all of that as much as I want a government who will govern effectively, in an economically responsible manner, for the benefit of the whole country
And as it stands, the conservatives are the only party that are close to giving me what I said in that last sentence, and they may even get me some of what I want the EU (though I accept not all, and perhaps not any). But whilst the rumours are that Farage is trying to make UKIP more economically literate - and is facing a hard fight with the rest of his party, the UKIP policies page and those "100 reasons to vote UKIP" do not give me any confidence that UKIP is close to being a party I could trust with my vote
But unfortunately I, and to a large extent any UK PM, is in the situation of not being able to choose what we want. Instead we have a binary choice - leave or stay. Now obviously there are many on here for whom that is an easy choice. For myself and probably a majority of the population it is less so. Polling suggests that even a relatively small change in our position with respect to the would lead to a sizeable majority wishing to stay in.
For many, whilst there is much we don't like, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. For many more even a small change would make that the case. For more still, the balance of benefits is less important than many other issues.
I would like to see a renegotiation
I would like to see the EU budget cut
I would like to see the EU books addressed properly
I would like to see new immigrants unable to claim benefits for 5 years
But I don't want all of that as much as I want a government who will govern effectively, in an economically responsible manner, for the benefit of the whole country
And as it stands, the conservatives are the only party that are close to giving me what I said in that last sentence, and they may even get me some of what I want the EU (though I accept not all, and perhaps not any). But whilst the rumours are that Farage is trying to make UKIP more economically literate - and is facing a hard fight with the rest of his party, the UKIP policies page and those "100 reasons to vote UKIP" do not give me any confidence that UKIP is close to being a party I could trust with my vote
This reflects my views absolutely. Well put, JAL.JustAnotherLogin said:
I would like to see a renegotiation
I would like to see the EU budget cut
I would like to see the EU books addressed properly
I would like to see new immigrants unable to claim benefits for 5 years
Ok, what do you mean by renegotiation?I would like to see the EU budget cut
I would like to see the EU books addressed properly
I would like to see new immigrants unable to claim benefits for 5 years
I keep hearing that's what people want, but no clues as exactly what bits?
As it is now, its just some woolly aspiration
Scuffers said:
Ok, what do you mean by renegotiation?
I keep hearing that's what people want, but no clues as exactly what bits?
As it is now, its just some woolly aspiration
If it were me doing the negotiation, I'd be looking for movement on a range of issues, but what I would want to walk away with is something along the lines of individual member countries being responsible for the costs of their citizens when in other countries. This includes benefits, prison costs, health, and other administrative costs. My starting position would be "The UK pays no further contributions until the Commission agrees to a full external audit of the accounts, and will withhold a large percentage until such time as the accounts are signed off".I keep hearing that's what people want, but no clues as exactly what bits?
As it is now, its just some woolly aspiration
Scuffers said:
JustAnotherLogin said:
I would like to see a renegotiation
I would like to see the EU budget cut
I would like to see the EU books addressed properly
I would like to see new immigrants unable to claim benefits for 5 years
Ok, what do you mean by renegotiation?I would like to see the EU budget cut
I would like to see the EU books addressed properly
I would like to see new immigrants unable to claim benefits for 5 years
I keep hearing that's what people want, but no clues as exactly what bits?
As it is now, its just some woolly aspiration
as you say woolly aspirations driven by pro EU Call me Dave, in the 5 years the conservatives have been in power, does anybody know how many changes they have been able to make to the way the EU runs? Apart from the ability to give them more money we do not have.Gaspode said:
If it were me doing the negotiation, I'd be looking for movement on a range of issues, but what I would want to walk away with is something along the lines of individual member countries being responsible for the costs of their citizens when in other countries. This includes benefits, prison costs, health, and other administrative costs. My starting position would be "The UK pays no further contributions until the Commission agrees to a full external audit of the accounts, and will withhold a large percentage until such time as the accounts are signed off".
Ok, that seems a reasonable position.So, being realistic, knowing that this will just be unachievable, what's your position next?
What i am getting at is this, we all probably could draw up lists of stuff to be renegotiated, but being realistic, apart from some fiddling round the edges, they are not going to happen, at which point what do we do?
Cameron and co have had 5 years to start this process, yet have done nothing, yet we are supposed to believe now he's dead keen on it.
So, my view is renegotiation is just a sham to fool the electorate yet again.
I really hope the fallout from Greece and how the EU treat them will open some people's eyes to what we are dealing with.
PRTVR said:
Scuffers said:
JustAnotherLogin said:
I would like to see a renegotiation
I would like to see the EU budget cut
I would like to see the EU books addressed properly
I would like to see new immigrants unable to claim benefits for 5 years
Ok, what do you mean by renegotiation?I would like to see the EU budget cut
I would like to see the EU books addressed properly
I would like to see new immigrants unable to claim benefits for 5 years
I keep hearing that's what people want, but no clues as exactly what bits?
As it is now, its just some woolly aspiration
as you say woolly aspirations driven by pro EU Call me Dave, in the 5 years the conservatives have been in power, does anybody know how many changes they have been able to make to the way the EU runs? Apart from the ability to give them more money we do not have.
Scuffers said:
So, being realistic, knowing that this will just be unachievable, what's your position next?
I don't know that it would be unachievable. What has happened in the past is that incumbent power blocs have been able to stonewall any attempts at negotiation because they have had a considerable majority backing.These days the net contributor nations are growing a good deal more sceptical of the current situation, and I'm by no means certain that the UK would be automatically rebuffed, especially if they were aware of the threat of a British exit if things weren't sorted out.
I am a Europhile, I freely admit that what I want in the end is a federal Europe, it's the only way I see us as being able to survive in the long term against the emerging world economic blocs, plus I think we have a lot to gain culturally. I also don't personally see any great problem with faceless bureaucrats from Brussels replacing faceless bureaucrats from Westminster, especially when our civil servants seems to have adopted such a spectacularly supine role when compared to their French, Dutch, German, Spanish, and Italian counterparts.
But this isn't at any cost. The EU finances must get sorted out, as must the Euro - and I think until we have centralised fiscal policies a single currency is unworkable. These problems (and many others) need to be fixed. They may not be able to be fixed. We certainly won't be able to help fix them if we leave the EU, neither would we be able to get back in if they get fixed after we've left. So we should stay in and try to fix them. If it does indeed prove to be an insoluble problem, then maybe we should consider leaving, but the current proposals to me seem to give insufficient time for the electorate to really understand the implications of leaving.
JustAnotherLogin said:
What I want for renegotiation and what we might get are different things.
As I have said before, if new immigrants cannot claim benefits for 5 years then I could live with that. That is I believe achievable.
that it?As I have said before, if new immigrants cannot claim benefits for 5 years then I could live with that. That is I believe achievable.
so, if camoron gets that and nothing else you will be happy?
you don't care about the effects of immigration on the NHS? (NHS tourism)
or the lack of transparency that the EU budget has not been signed off for the 19th year in a row?
or the ever increasing financial demands by the EU to prop up failing states and programmes?
or the CAP?
Right-to-Buy?
the list goes on, but that's all fine by you?
Edited by Scuffers on Friday 30th January 08:30
JustAnotherLogin said:
What I want for renegotiation and what we might get are different things.
As I have said before, if new immigrants cannot claim benefits for 5 years then I could live with that. That is I believe achievable.
If it is achievable, why has it not been achieved ? You really have to judge future possible achievements against what happened in the past, nothing.As I have said before, if new immigrants cannot claim benefits for 5 years then I could live with that. That is I believe achievable.
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